Can't play above the staff

[cliffardo]

I keep seeing 'I can only hit high C and not double F' and I'm sitting here thinking, is this the right forum for me? I can't even hit a G on the top of the staff, not when I was in high school and certainly not now after coming back.

Can I have a straight forward tip on how to develop range without killing myself? I have tried the Charlie Porter embouchure, I have watched Clark Terry explain how he played. I look at trumpet players playing above the staff without going red in the face. I have been practicing lip and mouthpiece buzzing. BUT the moment I get the trumpet to my face, it all falls apart.

I don't find people saying 'just blow harder' to be very helpful, because that's what two teachers told me in high school and in university and it got me absolutely nowhere.

[Brassnose]

In my experience, blowing harder will generate the opposite of what you want. Playing higher (for me) requires less air but a good control over the air flow, air support, and tongue position (took me only about 30 years to figure that one out).

In general I would advise to find a teacher and explain the problem to him/her.

I am no high note player either. In the practice room or during warm up I can play up to ca. G above high C, on stage I can use about high D or E, on long gigs or when I am stressed I will top out at high C.
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[PC]

I agree that blowing harder usually does not work in the sense that resonance is what creates the sound in the trumpet and blowing harder does not guarantee that the wished frequency will be selected. Try playing softer at first, until the new notes you conquer are responding well, then it is easy to add some dynamics as you get better at hitting the notes.

There are several ways to think about playing higher, without putting more effort or at least without constricting the throat:
- Bringing the lips closer together horizontally (reducing the vibrating aperture) without pinching, such that the lips are soft in the middle
- Raising the tongue (mostly the back part of it) without closing the teeth
- Increasing pressure but not necessary flow (compression), by pushing with the belly
- Pressing top lip on bottom lip, together with air compression to maintain buzz.

Not every method works for everyone, and the reality is probably a combination of pressure, oral cavity shape and direct or indirect change in embouchure shape and tension. One thing is sure, most of us with difficulty in ascending, apply too much change and actually overshoot the target, losing resonance and thus sound or hitting an increased resistance to blow. Overtone series intervals are large at the bottom of the trumpet range and get smaller and smaller. So the effort needed to jump from one overtone to the next should also get smaller for higher frequency.

For my case, I was doing too many changes simultaneously and hitting therefore the famous brick wall. I improved by only changing one parameter at a time: for example, changing lip shape without blowing harder, thinking of remaining on the same note, or raising the tongue without changing anything else (consciously, other changes probably happen without my noticing it).

I would recommend that you look at the videos of Greg Spence for example, he has very good pedagogical approach.

Best,
Pierre

[JayKosta]

If you rely on high mouthpiece rim pressure (or overly tight lips) for playing higher, you are likely preventing your lips from being able to vibrate, regardless of how hard you attempt to blow.

The 'trick' is to learn how to adjust the lip opening that will produce the pitch, AND have the aperture flexible enough to vibrate with doable air flow.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kehaulani]

I can only share what worked for me. If it helps, great. If not, sorry.

* Learning that high notes do not come from clamping down strongly to increase range. (BE Lip-clamp exercise, notwithstanding)
* While the supporting-embouchure muscles should be firm, the actual aperture should be soft and freely moving and, to an extent, passive.
* Brief leadpipe buzzing, no free buzzing.
* i used The Balanced Embouchure (BE) concept of how to use the embouchure.
* Maggio exercises (not his embouchure).

n.b. - Results were a playable Double High C and a consistent, performable E above High C. That's about all the range I need, so stopped there.
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[the blowhard]

My "nickname" is The Blowhard but don't do that. In fact, just the oppisite. What worked for me is playing scales, both up and down. Start with middle C or wherever you are comfortable. Just do an 8 note scale. When you can do that scale well, move up 1 note and do that scale. Play the notes at a tempo that is comfortable for you, then when you get that scale almost mastered, do it in slow tones, both up and down. Also, play each scale GENTLY and as quietly as you can. My chops needed the muscle memory training in order to learn how to approach those higher notes. I too thought I would never see High C.

[huntman10]

I will add some basic advice to practice with a mirror (I guess in the 21st Century, you could video yourself) and watch critically to see if your chops (actually your diaphragm, neck, facial muscles, etc.) are doing what you think they are. Even your posture can be helpful.

Just a thought. I forget where I got the advice, but I have done it for 60 or more years. Haven't broken any mirrors yet!
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
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Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Croquethed]

Blowhard is definitely on the right track - don't push things too hard!

To some extent, extending range is similar to what new runners are told to do when they are ready to add mileage, which is to very gradually expand time on your feet.

Patience is key and experimentation is critical. I only have a solid E above high C and for that and the D I find I had to modify the position of my lower lip to make those consistent (after 3-4 years of trying things). For me rolling it in is what gives me the consistent notes. It may be different for you.

[Brassnose]

Oh yeah, mirror and posture is very important. When we put in a new piece of furniture I deliberately put in a „practice mirror“. Most useful piece of glass ever

When looking at your posture, everything is important but very person-dependent: personally I tend to have my feet quite far apart and always need to tell myself to not stand like a western movie hero just about to pull his Colts.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[jhatpro]

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Try to get an hour lesson online with one of the trumpet embouchure experts (read around here).

I didn't have a great range in high school--started to get iffy at the A above the staff. I think honestly just getting up to a consistent high C would let you play 99.9% of the music you need.

[Dayton]

[gwood66]

[cliffardo]

[cliffardo]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful and polite replies! I have taken away several things, mainly:

1) Find a good teacher;

2) Don't over-blow or squeeze out the notes; keep your lips free to vibrate;

3) Go slowly.

Thank you!

[kalijah]

[Andy Cooper]

Similar to what Jay said - your lips need to be able to move inside the mouthpiece. I figured this out in a semester of studying tuba. If you have a chance to borrow a euphonium or even a junky trombone for a month it might help you get the correct feeling of your lips making small "Mmm" movements inside the mouthpiece. The large diameter mouthpiece simply will not let you muscle your way higher.

Just blowing louder does not work.

[JayKosta]

[cliffardo]

Hello all. I appreciate all the responses! I am posting a similar message to all my current posts because they were all related.

Basically: I saw I was maintaining an almost distended distance between my lower and upper teeth (like an inch), which is definitely farm from the relaxed starting point (or the 1/4" Stevens-Costello recommends). I was otherwise using my lips as prescribed, but my lips were so stretched out I don't think I was gonna get anywhere.

Of course it's gonna take time to unlearn the huge gap I've been using (and wonder why my university teacher didn't point it out before they said I should play euphonium, which amounted to a kind of musical death sentence, as far as I am concerned), but now the G on the staff is not the issue it once was.

[Doug Elliott]

I like that phrase "a kind of musical death sentence" but a lot of euphonium players would take issue with it.

If you're actually interested in fixing things and making playing easy, send me a PM to set up a Skype lesson.