Benge 8 cornet

[Brassnose]

Hello Benge experts out there. I have come across a Benge cornet which to me looks exactly like the pictures you see of the 8Z cornets on the web. However, the bell only says "Resno tempered 8 by E. Benge".

Would that still be an 8Z?
Is there a difference between 8 and 8Z?
Is this a "real" Benge (i.e. Not UMI)?

Serial is 170xxx but there is also a 37 stamped before that number with a slight distance between the 37 and the serial.

Thanks!
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Yamahaguy]

I have a number of Benge trumpets and only tried one cornet,
but to my knowledge there was not an "8" bell...only 1-7.
I have seen both heavy and light stamping on bells, so maybe it's a 3?

And if that is the serial #, then no...it's not "real", late 80's most likely.
UMI's should have 'USA' on 2nd valve or bell.

[bagmangood]

You can tell a UMI horn by the fact that it will say "Made in the USA" on it. If you don't see that, you're in the clear

As the Yamahaguy said, probably not a "true" benge with a 6 digit serial

From Joe Lill's Benge site:

[boog]

Add 50 to the first two numbers for the year of manufacture on UMI made "Benges". In your case, this would make yours a 1987 model. I have a trumpet (CG model) that I bought new that was make in that year.

It plays about as well as my "real" Claude Gordon Benge from the mid-'70's did...so don't worry about yours not being a "real" Benge. These models were so close to the original Benge-made instruments that they are practically indistinguishable. I believe that production was moved to Eastlake Ohio in late 1986 when UMI bought out Benge, so a lot of the horns made in this time frame were made on the same tooling and may even had parts made in the original Benge factory. Cosmetically, they are almost identical, with different bell stamping (as mentioned above), and the third valve slide brace is different (they eliminated the brace with "Benge" stamped on it).

I could be wrong on the buy-out time frame, so I will leave the correction to someone out there that was perhaps an employee or such. My Eastlake CG has gone into semi-retirement, as my playing needs have changed over the last few years, but the instruments made around this time are quite good, actually mine is about the same quality as the LA models I owned back in the 70's.

Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the ones I have seen and played made in this century! My lead player has one of these, and it is a nice trumpet, and he likes it, but in my opinion these are Benge in name only. They just ain't the same! Basically, they appear to be intermediate, step-up models, much like the King instruments being made now. They play well, but they are not pro-level instruments in my opinion!

As always, YMMV and etc.

[shofarguy]

I have loved Benge horns since the first time I ever played one, which was an early Los Angeles or late Burbank era 3X+.

Benge used a number to identify the bell used in each model (the 4X being the exception) and a letter to indicate what type of instrument - X for Bb trumpet, Z for cornet, etc. - each model was. So, there is no difference between an "8" and "Z."

UMI purchased Benge in 1981, I think, and moved the factory to Ohio in 1983. They did not take any tooling with them. It is one of the great stories in which UMI sells the Benge tooling at auction and Zig Kanstul buys it and begins the Burbank Trumpet line using original Benge tooling.

According to Joe Lil's site and my own conversations with Byron Autrey (who recently passed away ), the early USA Benge horns were built from LA parts shipped to Ohio in the move. These early horns had 6 digit serial numbers, but not the 2 digit preface. The valve sections had been stamped with their serial numbers at the SoCal factory, but the bells were stamped in Ohio.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Downunder]

Yours is a UMI one, however this is not a bad thing! I currently own 3 of these plus an "original" Benge cornet and have owned about 5 or 6 others.

Both my original Benge and the UMI ones I own have an "8" stamped on the bell.

The serial number of yours means it was made in 1987 (37 + 50)

I actually use my UMI one all the time mainly because it plays better than the original one but also to keep the other one in good condition as it was the first instrument I ever bought! My original one is a very good cornet and was hand-picked from the Benge factory around 1978 by someone who played about 20 or more of them over a few days.

They are a beautiful instrument and I wouldn't trade a Besson or a Yamaha for one in a fit!

[Brassnose]

Man, that was quick. Thanks everyone for their responses. The reason for asking originally was that over here we do not see many Benge trumpets, much less cornets and I had never read about an 8 only cornet. This made me think, maybe the seller is playing games. Moreover, the price of the horn was suspiciously low.

BUT of course the horns seems to have been real and legit so someone with more first hand Benge knowledge bought it before I returned from work last night Oh well ...

I really appreciate all the comments - interesting to learn all the stuff. So far I did not really care about the background of instruments, I just played them
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[boog]

[Stephen Haynes]

I recently picked up a Benge 8 cornet, serial number #110XXX, with USA listed at the bottom of the bell engraving. Wanting to confirn the group sense of 1) date and location of manufacture and 2) bore size. The bell is 5"

Horn originally belonged to the Scarlet and Black Bagpipe Band in Cedar City, Utah. I bought it from a symphony player who had picked it up from Dick Akright's shop in San Francisco.

Would love to share a photo - but doing that here?
_________________
Stephen Haynes
Schilke Artist

Schilke XA1 Cornet
Schilke Soprano Cornet
Schilke 1040 FL-S Flugelhorn
Schilke X4L Tuning Bell Trumpet
& a host of vintage cornets, flugelhorns and low brass

Stork Custom Vacchiano Mouthpieces

[shofarguy]

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

Do not these "8" cornets appear (also) as "8Z" ?
I believe (?) they are similar in appearance to Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" short cornets, with the Shepherd's Crook valve slides.
Yes / No ?
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz

[Dale Proctor]

[jcathey]

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

Thnx, jcathey.
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz