Really flat high C on Bach C tpt

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Hello! Please forgive me for making a first post on your wonderful forum a plea for help.

Returning to playing after a 13-year break and noticing more than before that my Bach C trumpet is incredibly flat on the high C--closer to a B. If it helps, this is a Frankenhorn that I had built early in college with a Blackburn 20 leadpipe, rounded tuning crook, and 239GH bell added. But I used it through all of undergrad and grad school days touring as principal with a good orchestra on some reasonably challenging literature. Haven't owned a Bb since high school. So the tpt is not new to me, but for some reason coming back this note is WAY low. There are some small squirrely intonation things throughout the scale, but nothing that I mind working around except this note. By the time I lip it up to be in tune I can slip into the D easier than remain on the C. Landing cold on the C (in tune) is taking more effort than the D and probably equal to the E (D, E, and F are slotting fine, perhaps oddly).

I love the sound of the horn too much to want to swap, but any ideas as to why this note could be so off? FWIW, the problem is slightly corrected by trying different mouthpieces, but only marginally. Very flat with any of the Stork, Schilke, or Bach mouthpieces that I regularly use.

Thanks so much for any thoughts!

[dr_trumpet]

To be honest, it is probably one of three things.

When you played it previously, you were playing a great deal more than now, yes? I know that as I move away from playing an instrument, and as some of my comeback students have returned to a trumpet after some period of time away from playing, they find that equipment they have previously found great success with no longer meets their needs, or has issues now that it never did before for them. Instances of intonation concerns on specific pitches are often a culprit, and the instrument is rarely the actual cause. More frequently, the player has physically changed, through any number of potential reasons. Without a far greater discussion, this is an area we cannot likely address here beyond generalities.

When I was at IU for my doctoral work, we had a tremendous player who insisted on warming up on his C trumpet, and he was absolute in his preference for the C as his warm-up and all time use instrument. It was interesting because part of the issue was that his Bb was not a great horn, so the C became the standard. That led to issues over time when he went to other instruments, and as a result of the C have more general tuning issues than a good Bb, his pattern of pitch alteration to be in tune became far more C-centric. In the longer term, he always sounded great on his C, but the Bb had issues. I took from observation that the Bb was the instrument to use as my "base", while the C was my second instrument. Though I play the C in orchestra 95% of the time, I always use the Bb as my warm-up and baseline for every single day.

Finally, if you are absolutely certain that you've not changed, then take the instrument to a quality repair technician who is versed in C trumpet repair and maintenance. Perhaps there are issues that have developed over time in the mechanism of the instrument.

The other thing to recommend is a great teacher. Finding someone who can give you some advice on your playing and the way you are approaching the instrument after years of layoff could help with things you might have either forgotten, or have not noticed in your return. I am sure with the quality pros and great teachers on this website, you can be directed easily to someone who will offer valuable feedback and meaningful assistance.

Please respond if I can assist further...

Al
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

[Steve A]

Just as a thought - if you've changed mouthpieces since the last time you played this instrument, it could be a gap problem. (Or, maybe the receiver has worn such that you now notice gap problems that before you overlooked because of being in the swing of playing that instrument regularly.)

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Al, thank you for such a thoughtful response. Sorry for the tardy reply--I've been away. You're absolutely right that there have been some physical changes since I last played, as well as having gotten entirely out of shape with this kind of thing. After only about a month back, the endurance issues are painful... I noticed right off the bat that the cavernous Stork mouthpiece that was always my primary mouthpiece does not fit my current physical condition. But I had not considered that those same changes might be exaggerating intonation idiosyncrasies of specific notes--very insightful, thank you! My tpt funds have just gone to a P7-4 because my old P5-4 was my most missed instrument, so a Bb might have to wait a bit. But your point about the Bb as a perhaps preferable "base" horn makes a lot of sense.

Steve, reading other threads on this forum over the past week about intonation issues and slotting of some problematic notes has made me wonder about a possible mouthpiece/receiver gap issue. But your feedback is prompting me to examine that as a starting point. Thanks.

Very much appreciate your thoughts, gents.

-Alex

[Jon Kaplan]

I find a 24 style backbore (instead of a stock backbore) on C trumpet can really help with the flat high C. That's a fairly cheap and straight forward thing to try, either as a modification of a mouthpiece you have or buying one with it installed. That would be a Bach 24 or a Stork D.
_________________
2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra

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Thanks, Jon! I'm very willing to try different backbore setups. Actually, my main mouthpiece is a Stork 2C+26D. I landed on that D backbore back in the day after bugging the good folks at Stork ad infinitum testing different but similar arrangements. But I have one or two sets of mouthpieces with pretty radically different backbores and all else similar (14a4a and 14a4x for example). I'll play around with those and see what difference it makes.

If I were more patient I suppose that a lot of this "figuring out" should wait until I'm back for a little longer and have rebuilt some embouchure strength and consistency...

[bagmangood]

I was going to say, if you're talking about the C above the staff on a C trumpet being flat a month into a comeback ... is it maybe just that you're a month into a comeback?

That setup sounds like it needs a strong player behind it, which you presumably were but are now only on the way back to it. So maybe give it a little while and it will suddenly start being in tune again (as long as you're hearing it correctly!)
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More than one trumpet
A "few" mouthpieces

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Appreciate the suggestion, Bagmangood. I think you're right that I need at least some patience here, and as Al mentioned building back up may help the equipment feel better anyway. AHHH patience!!! Listened to wonderful local Magnificat and then Mahler 3 performances a couple weeks in a row and it did me in--had to get back into playing (the posthorn solo went better in my practice session than the Magnificat on a big C did...).

I'll stop hogging up your forum bandwidth, but really impressed with the kind, insightful, supportive feedback from all of you on this site. What a great resource you've built here!

-Alex

[MrOlds]

Fun fact re: you’ve changed. We replace about 1% of our cells every day. So there have been roughly 39 new “you” between the time you stopped playing regularly and now. That’s a lot of change and a lot of lost muscle memory. Your mind remembers but the muscles that could actually do it were replaced long ago.

Don’t be hard on yourself. Eventually you’ll retrain whichever new “you” you happen to be

[zaferis]

Not an uncommon thing on C trumpets.. yes, a larger throat on the mouthpiece (25 or 24) helps this in particular.
Take note of how the lower octave C sits - I find if often can ride sharp - so, if I'm not careful it makes the upper octave seem even flatter. I do like to tune to a concert B - second valve notes are less "slippery" (don't wander pitch wise as much)
Then as was mentioned prior.. spend time getting familiar with the differences from a Bb.. lots of tuner and/or drone time, warming up with piano chords.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[dr_trumpet]

I know the Bach 57 backbore was supposed to be helpful for that high C, especially on larger mouthpieces. I own a couple, and they do help.

But, to me, an equipment change only makes sense when you feel back in shape and still notice the issues.

I can tell you are approaching this with the right frame of mind and great attitude! Please keep us in the loop on your journey, and enjoy the process!

Al
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music

[Destructo]

I was with aa pro orchestral player while they were testing some mouthpieces. He had his normal pieces with him as well, which had been sleeved.
I was asking him about whether it was worth it, as I have always avoided getting into the whole Gap thing.

He put his Bb sleeve on his C mouthpiece. Played a C major scale on his Bach C trumpet. The high C was noticably flat. He swapped it for his normal C trumpet sleeve. The high C was bang on.

I sighed in annoyance, because for years, I've always had the same problem on C trumpet, on any stock/standard mouthpiece, it starts to go flat above the staff. The only way I found to get things up to pitch was to go to really large backbores, but then the sound starts to lose some focus etc.

Apparently it really is the gap. Which is not what I wanted to know.

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Just a quick update after another month. I wanted to thank you all for the courteous, informative responses to my plea for help.

Al, I think your feedback (reiterated by a few others in the thread) about just needing to rebuild some physical strength a bit was spot on. The C is dropping in much more in line now. Though I did try the paper trick to see what the gap factor was introducing as Steve and Destructo suggested, and definitely noticed a difference (at least in the testable expanded gap direction). Very interesting.

Mark Bennett from Schilke kindly directly sent my new P7-4 since I couldn't find one in stock at any retailers, which I'm loving. Plays differently than my memory of the P5-4, and y'all aren't kidding about it being easier to match the bigger horn sound.

Now extremely excited to receive a standard model C/D from Matt Martin of Norwich (the teaser photo Matt emailed of completed parts has me giddy) and going to dive down the rabbit hole of finding a good mpc for clarino stuff if anyone has suggestions (I'll bug you with a different thread once that arrives).

Thank you all once again! Having an absolute hoot getting back into this.
-Alex

[dr_trumpet]

[nltrumpet]

I know a couple of current and former principal trumpets of major orchestra who often utilize fingering “1” on the high C in some situations.