Intonation and problems with trumpets tuning

[entdoc]

Need some help here from the trumpet community. I am a long time player - My new Getzen 3050 , plays well; however, once I tune the horn correctly to say C ( within 5 cents) the E , F, and A are always out of tune. Anyone have that problem? Valves are terrific. D and C# need help as expected. My fallback horn is Conn 28B ( 1953 ) that is in tune. My flugle - Couesnon 1968 is also in tune across any scale. This is frustrating me to death. Any comments welcome. I have played/ owned a variety of other horns including Schilke, Kanstul, Benge, Powell and Selmer Paris without problems.
Thanks
Bill
_________________
Selmer L990 Lightweight ( 1941 )
Benge 5x, 1979
Conn 28B 1952
Monette BLMS1
Stomvi S14 VVR 4.5 flex

[LittleRusty]

When you say you tune to C do you mean the trumpet’s C, not concert C?

Are the E, F and A at the top of the staff? So open, first valve and first and second respectively?

E, F and A at the bottom of the staff all use the first valve where as the E at the top doesn’t and thus might eliminate theories like the first valve slide being too long.

I would suggest that you have another accomplished player try it, with your and his mouthpiece. If they have a similar issue then contact your Getzen dealer. Getzen stands behind their products.

[entdoc]

thanks for your reply. I normally tune to concert B b with my istrobesoft software and use cello drones for tuning as well. Noticed this intonation problem with long tones specifically in the staff only. Think , you are absolutely right that it is a first valve issue. Had some of the jazz ensemble members comment on the lack of intonation with this horn compared to my flugle as well a few weeks ago. I went back and cleaned the MP and first valve slide to check this. I will see

[JayKosta]

I understand what you've written about the tuning issues, and your experience with other instruments.

Can you hear the Getzen's intonation issues while you are playing well-known melodies?

My 'basic test' of tuning and intonation is playing several major scales (C Bb D Ab Eb F G ) and listen whether the step-by-step intervals sound correct - or can be made to sound correct with minimal 'lipping' or valve slide adjustment.
_________________
method 1: DO it right and right things will HAPPEN
method 2: make the RIGHT THINGS happen
--
See / Think / Adjust / Do
becomes See & Do.

[Vin DiBona]

First of all, the C in the staff on a Bb trumpet is usually a bit sharp.
Tune to the the 2nd line G instead, then go to the C above it and work the other notes.
Pulling out too far on the C - unless it is ridiculously out of tune - will make the notes above flat.

I remember a quote from Bud Herseth about the orchestras tuning to concert A. He said to it reminds us that note is played 1 and 2.

R. Tomasek

[entdoc]

First of all, the C in the staff on a Bb trumpet is usually a bit sharp.
Tune to the the 2nd line G instead, then go to the C above it and work the other notes.
Pulling out too far on the C - unless it is ridiculously out of tune - will make the notes above flat.

I remember a quote from Bud Herseth about the orchestras tuning to concert A. He said to it reminds us that note is played 1 and 2.

Good stuff: great comments: will try tuning around G and see. I have tried, at various times, to tune in other notes on this horn without success. Have monitored the tuning for each note in the given scale via the stobe analysis. I follow James Stamp advice to keep thinking down going up and thinking up going down to hold notes in their right position. This just has been off with this horn for some reason.

[Craig Swartz]

Sing. Hear your pitch before you even try to play.

I sit down in many diverse situations where I never move the slide or bell, so long as the ensemble or other player is within some sort of standard range. I've always encouraged students to hear what is happening around them in pitch and enter where they are, move the slide if something is way off. I think most of us are this way, perhaps I'm wrong.

I also have spent some time with various strobe-type tuners, moving the slide in and out and still able to "stop" the wheel without a lot of effort. As for notes using 12 combination, these have always seemed to be somewhat sharp to me and I usually adjust with a slight bit of 1st valve slide. 4th line D and 4th space E (Bb horn) are also quite flat, but after playing for years, one's "body" generally figures out how to compensate before playing them.

[JayKosta]

Another consideration is valve alignment.
My basic test for alignment is 'sound oriented' - play all the various valve combinations to evaluate their tone (not pitch).

If some valve combinations have a significantly 'off' tone, that can indicate an alignment problem. Yes, there will be some tone differences among the various combinations, but none should be glaringly 'off'.

Alignment can also affect how cleanly the combination produces the proper sound on the initial playing of the note.

You might try this test procedure on other instruments that have good intonation - for comparison.
_________________
method 1: DO it right and right things will HAPPEN
method 2: make the RIGHT THINGS happen
--
See / Think / Adjust / Do
becomes See & Do.

[zaferis]

Trumpets are out of tune, some worse than others. Mouthpiece and habits will also have an effect. i.e. if you're comfortable with one trumpet, say having to lip a certain note up a little, then with another trumpet that needs that note lipped further it will seem flat to you.

Look up, "overtone series tuning tendencies", this is the science part, with trumpet design and construction variations improving or worsening these points:

our low C (1st overtone) - in tune
second line G (2nd overtone) - 2 cents sharp
3rd space C (3rd overtone) - in tune -> but I find this note slippery on most b-flat trumpets-very easily bent (lipped) up or down quite drastically
E (4th overtone) - 14 cents flat
G (5th overtone) - 2 cents sharp -> but also easily bent, up especially, pinched
Bb (6th overtone) - 31 cents flat
C (7th overtone) - in tune - often sharp as the player is "pinching" and/or the mouthpiece isn't supporting this tone well.

a link to a more detailed trumpet tuning study:
https://blog.utc.edu/erika-schafer/trumpet-tuning-tendencies-relating-to-the-overtone-series-with-solutions-2/

My habit with b-flat trumpets is to find the center of a B (concert A middle of the staff) get that "in tune".. it is a bit more stable than an open C that I find slippery, and puts the slide in the most manageable place.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[yourbrass]

Try other mouthpieces, or, if you have a top/bottom system mouthpiece (a la Warburton) try different backbores.
On my old Bach, I tried three different backbores, and one was noticeably better at pulling the staff C/G pitch relationship into tune.
I also use tuners infrequently, the ear is better at getting to the surrounding pitch.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /Bach 50's backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[JayKosta]

Also, check the mouthpiece 'gap' on the Getzen, if it is way off it can cause problems.
see here for info about measuring the gap -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1587628

For discussion about importance of gap -
https://hub.yamaha.com/winds/brass/advanced-instrument-design-and-maintenance-the-mouthpiece-gap/
_________________
method 1: DO it right and right things will HAPPEN
method 2: make the RIGHT THINGS happen
--
See / Think / Adjust / Do
becomes See & Do.

[lipshurt]

Water key is leaking
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[entdoc]

Also, check the mouthpiece 'gap' on the Getzen, if it is way off it can cause problems.
see here for info about measuring the gap -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1587628

Thanks Jay: The problem solved - it was the gap- way off. I have been using my trusty GR 64S with all my other horns w excellent intonation ( fitted). Did the gap test as suggested and switched out MP to a Getzen 1c- perfectly in tune thru the range. I just need to contact GR and see if I can get the right shank for the Getzen horn. Thanks to the entire trumpet community for their comments and expertise. The articles written on the true trumpet tuning study excellent.

[Ronnman]

Entdoc - just curious, what was the gap measurements of the 2 mouthpieces?
Thanks,
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[entdoc]

Entdoc - just curious, what was the gap measurements of the 2 mouthpieces?
Thanks,
Ron

Hi Ron: the gap was about 1/4 inch for the GR64 S and less that 2 mm for the Getzen ! A that i had on hand. What a difference. I need to try and get a change of the gap for my GR if possible.

[Ronnman]

Thanks. That is quite a large difference. I’m sure GR can make a mouthpiece or backbore to fit the Getzen. Any thoughts about contacting Brett Getzen to have the receiver checked out or replaced? He’s a contributor here on TH, user name Getzen.
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[LittleRusty]

[Ronnman]

On further review, I agree with LittleRusty. The Getzen folks would most likely direct you back to the dealer where you purchased the horn.
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014