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kramergfy
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 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:23 pm Post subject: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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I have been trying to sort out the specifics of the "Early Elkhart" Bachs. Here is what I have gathered, using this forum, and the Bach Loyalist as a reference.
1965 (Corp *no dot* mouthpieces)
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire round rim (Major departure from the brass "French" bead on Mt. Vernons)
* Two piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* Serial on each valve piston
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
1970 #50782 (Start of Corp . *large dot* mouthpieces, new tooling)
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire rim
* Two-piece valve with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valve pistons
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
1972-3 #68,xxx
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1492574
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Steel wire rim
* Two-piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
*Fist slide is over/under with a saddle as standard
1977 #121,7xx
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Steel wire rim
* One piece brass valve block
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Sculpted late Mt. Vernon pinky ring
<1980-1990 (modern 180, pre 190)
* 6 o’clock/7o'clock seam
* Brass wire rim
* All brass valves
* Nylon valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Modern pinky ring
Looking for more info:
-More specifics after 1980 in terms of when the rim went back to brass, and the guides became nylon.
-What the bell gauges were in the late Mt. Vernon days, Early Elkhart days, and when/if it changes again afterwards.
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Last edited by kramergfy on Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:40 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Tpt_Guy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have an early Elkhart (S/N 38,XXX) 239 C. It has the side seam, two piece valve casings, brass valve guides, at standard weight for the time the bell is lighter than even modern "lightweight" Bach C trumpet bells (such as the Chicago), has the S/N on every valve, and it had the vintage pinky hook until I had a reverse leadpipe put on.
It deviates from your list in that it has more of a flattish bead with distinctive sharp edge rather than the full round of my early 1980s Bb. It is rounder than the French bead made by Bach today (that I've seen) but it is very similar to the beads I've seen on Mt. Vernon models.
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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When you say “no serial on valves” do you mean on the pistons or the casing?
Edit: dug out my purchased in ‘72 Strad and the pinky ring looks nearly identical to my ~2005 Strad. The foot on the 2005 has sharper corners on the sides of the foot. I am not sure what the difference between a vintage vs modern pinky ring is. |
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kramergfy
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | When you say “no serial on valves” do you mean on the pistons or the casing?
Edit: dug out my purchased in ‘72 Strad and the pinky ring looks nearly identical to my ~2005 Strad. The foot on the 2005 has sharper corners on the sides of the foot. I am not sure what the difference between a vintage vs modern pinky ring is. |
Serials on the individual pistons is what I was referring to there.. The vintage pinky ring in this case is the one designed in Mt. Vernon and used in Elkhart up to 1980.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| kramergfy wrote: | Looking for more info:
-More specifics after 1980 in terms of when the rim went back to brass, and the guides became nylon.
-What the bell gauges were in the late Mt. Vernon days, Early Elkhart days, and when/if it changes again afterwards. |
Your timing is a bit late. A couple years ago you could just have called Tedd before he retired from Bach. He was part of that decision to change back to brass wire. He's somewhere down in Florida now playing retiree (hard to imagine).
The "standard" bell thickness at Mt. Vernon until December of 1963 was 0.020". The Mt. Vernon 180s I have seen have 0.025" bells, which is the standard since day 1 in Elkhart (January 1965). The adoption of 0.020" as a standard does not appear to have been deliberate, but rather just happened by default after WWII. The change to 0.025" on the other hand was, I suspect, part of the bell making plans for Elkhart. What is not clear is if any Mt. Vernon 180s were built with 0.020" bells - there are just so few, and even fewer surviving unaltered. We may not have enough samples left to know that one for certain.
Also keep in mind that almost no change at Bach prior to modern times ever happened like a light switch. Pre-existing stock was used up, ideas were tried on one combination before another, and so on. You can typically only draw approximate boundaries on these things.
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www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
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_Daff
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| kramergfy wrote: |
1970 #50782
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire rim
* Two-piece valve with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* No serial on valves
* Vintage pinky ring
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My old #50688 had the serial numbers on each valve.
My '65 (#30400-ish) has the reversed slide stop rod ala Mt. Vernon.
The octave key on my '65 and '70 (#56000-ish) look identical
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | kramergfy wrote: | Looking for more info:
-More specifics after 1980 in terms of when the rim went back to brass, and the guides became nylon.
-What the bell gauges were in the late Mt. Vernon days, Early Elkhart days, and when/if it changes again afterwards. |
Your timing is a bit late. A couple years ago you could just have called Tedd before he retired from Bach. He was part of that decision to change back to brass wire. He's somewhere down in Florida now playing retiree (hard to imagine).
The "standard" bell thickness at Mt. Vernon until December of 1963 was 0.020". The Mt. Vernon 180s I have seen have 0.025" bells, which is the standard since day 1 in Elkhart (January 1965). The adoption of 0.020" as a standard does not appear to have been deliberate, but rather just happened by default after WWII. The change to 0.025" on the other hand was, I suspect, part of the bell making plans for Elkhart. What is not clear is if any Mt. Vernon 180s were built with 0.020" bells - there are just so few, and even fewer surviving unaltered. We may not have enough samples left to know that one for certain.
Also keep in mind that almost no change at Bach prior to modern times ever happened like a light switch. Pre-existing stock was used up, ideas were tried on one combination before another, and so on. You can typically only draw approximate boundaries on these things. |
'
Very interesting regarding the bell thickness for the 180 Mt. Vernons; so then the only real difference between one of those and an Early Elkhart would be the bell rim and the 3rd valve stop direction it seems like.
Did the 180 series stay at 0.025"? I recall 0.023" being a number for the later Elkharts through the 1990's up until the strike.
Obviously this is all real-world stuff that isn't so clear cut and dry. But having general serial number approximations for theses things is a great starting point for reference. It just irks me when I see horns advertised as "Early Elkhart" when in fact, they are not. In my book, anything pre 1970 is an Early, and after that it gets debatable fast. Some say two-piece valves...I say side seam bell *shrug*.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| kramergfy wrote: | | Obviously this is all real-world stuff that isn't so clear cut and dry. But having general serial number approximations for theses things is a great starting point for reference. It just irks me when I see horns advertised as "Early Elkhart" when in fact, they are not. In my book, anything pre 1970 is an Early, and after that it gets debatable fast. Some say two-piece valves...I say side seam bell *shrug*. |
As you say, not so clear. For me "Early Elkhart" is defined by two things: the mass in the valve block resulting from 2-piece construction, and the bell rim wire. The casings go away around 74 give or take (serial number won't do it - I suspect any mapping would have to have bell mandrel as an additional dimension). The wire, some time later - I'm thinking 77/8-ish, but I'm really not so sure. Roy told me he was never sure (but that Elkhart Bachs didn't interest him as much as the early ones so he didn't devote much investigation to the topic), but did tend to test 70s bells with a magnet when he encountered them.
As for the seam - most bells I have seen stripped down have a seam that is anything but straight. Given that, assigning a specific rotational position is at best an approximation, and after so many cycles of working and annealing, the seam is just part of the bell in my book.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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Tpt_Guy
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Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Roy told me he was never sure (but that Elkhart Bachs didn't interest him as much as the early ones so he didn't devote much investigation to the topic), but did tend to test 70s bells with a magnet when he encountered them. |
How strong would the magnet need to be to attract the bell wire?
I ask because I checked my 1968 Bach bell with a magnet and didn't get any kind of magnetic response.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Roy told me he was never sure (but that Elkhart Bachs didn't interest him as much as the early ones so he didn't devote much investigation to the topic), but did tend to test 70s bells with a magnet when he encountered them. |
How strong would the magnet need to be to attract the bell wire?
I ask because I checked my 1968 Bach bell with a magnet and didn't get any kind of magnetic response. |
It is a small wire wrapped in brass, so you need a strong magnet (I use transmission filter magnets) and it is a pull, not suspending the magnet or anything.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Early Elkhart Bach Log |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
It is a small wire wrapped in brass, so you need a strong magnet (I use transmission filter magnets) and it is a pull, not suspending the magnet or anything. |
Thank you. I managed to dig up something stronger and could feel the pull of the magnet against the steel wire.
I tested my 37, which is dated to the early 1980/81, and it also has a steel wire.
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shal
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Posts: 32
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:21 am Post subject: |
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My 32030 (37ML) (approx 1965) :
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire round rim
* Two piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* Serial on valves
* Corporation bell
For the pinky ring , I don't know, doesn't match Mt Vernon nor Elkhart
[img]https://imgur.com/ADL6xwW[/img]
My 59888 (229L):
* Side-seam bell
* Steel wire round rim
* Two piece valves with nickel silver balusters
* Brass valve guides
* NO Serial on valves
* Corporation bell
Not the original branch.
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Bach 37ml 1965
C: SchilBach (aka Bach 229L with Schilke modification)
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Piccolo : Stomvi (first model as Maurice)
Mouthpiece : Prana B2S3 or artisan 1C or 1-1/2B or ...
Last edited by shal on Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:11 am; edited 2 times in total |
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jadickson
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:47 am Post subject: |
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I have serial 246233 (1984?)
It has brass valve guides.
Magnet definitely attracts to the bell wire, so I guess it is steel.
Bell seam is at about 5 o'clock, looking down into the bell.
I also have serial 62176 (1971?)
Bought from the original owner, who said they bought it in 1971.
Brass valve guides.
No serial number on valves.
Vintage style pinky hook.
Bell seam is at 9 o'clock, looking down into the bell (side seam).
Magnet definitely attracts to the bell wire, so I guess it is steel.
It is silver plated, so it is hard to tell if the valve block is definitely two piece, but it seems to be two piece.
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quikv6
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:14 pm Post subject: 1st Slide Configuration |
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Sorry to bump an older thread, but does anyone know when (by rough serial #) did Bach transition from the male/male first slide to the modern reversed saddle setup?
I came across a very interesting 63,xxx serial number Strad. It has the modern reversed first slide w/saddle. (I thought they were still male/male at this time.)
Here is the bonus: It has a stop rod under the first slide (just like the third), and it looks factory installed, and not like a later modification.
Double bonus: the same horn also has a factory waterkey on the dump slide. There is no pull-nub either, like Bach dump slides have.
Could this horn have been a custom factory order?
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Funny should ask this as I was about to update this thread to include that information. From what I've read it seems that 1971 is when the switch occurred for the first valve slide configuration. I personally cannot stand the first valve, slide saddles or rings, as I have quite large hands and find it uncomfortable.
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quikv6
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Kramer,
I guess this 63xxx horn could be right around that time. The Bachloyalist site says mid 70s, and I thought 63xxx was before that. I suppose it's interpretive.
I also found it interesting that there is no pull-nib on this first (or dump) slide.
Any further information is appreciated!
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falado
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 1965 Bach 37, SR# 300XX. There is no Mt. Vernon or Elkhart stamped on the bell. The slide stop is reversed. I heard is happened to a few horns and is rare. The horn is in great shape too. I would post a picture, but can’t figure out how.
Dave
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| falado wrote: | I have a 1965 Bach 37, SR# 300XX. There is no Mt. Vernon or Elkhart stamped on the bell. The slide stop is reversed. I heard is happened to a few horns and is rare. The horn is in great shape too. I would post a picture, but can’t figure out how.
Dave |
There are a few of those rare birds floating around; during the move from Mt. Vernon to Elkhart they didn't stamp some of the bells with any location, just the Vincent Bach Corporation stamp.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| falado wrote: | I have a 1965 Bach 37, SR# 300XX. There is no Mt. Vernon or Elkhart stamped on the bell. The slide stop is reversed. I heard is happened to a few horns and is rare. The horn is in great shape too. I would post a picture, but can’t figure out how.
Dave |
There are Bachs much older than that with the reversed first slide - the problem is that most or all are modified. Bach trumpets are now, and always have ben, so frequently modified, that it is next to impossible to tell when or if the factory may have provided such a slide pre-Elkhart.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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