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Holton Super Collegiate vs. Olds Studio



 
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Brassman19
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Joined: 31 May 2019
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Location: Fort Worth, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:50 am    Post subject: Holton Super Collegiate vs. Olds Studio Reply with quote

Hi. I have a question that hopefully somebody out there has experience with, and can answer it for me. I somewhat recently bought (again, as I foolishly traded off my first horn I owned) a 1954-ish Holton Super Collegiate trumpet (SN 264XXX) in pretty good condition, the version made with a yellow brass bell and a nickel silver bell flare (before the red brass with nickel flare version), similar to the Olds Studio model horn of that same era.

My question is, has anyone here on TH happened to have owned both of these horns at the same time, and, if so, have you tried playing them side-by-side, to see how they compare in how they play, sound, feel, etc? Did you find that the Super Collegiate felt, responded, and even sounded similar to the Olds Studio? If not, what observations and differences did you notice between the two?

This version of Super Collegiate, in addition to its yellow brass bell and nickel silver bell flare, has a nickel silver lead pipe, but a yellow brass tuning slide (as opposed to the Olds Studio, which has the n.s. tuning slide, but a yellow brass lead pipe), but it does not have n.s. valve balusters, which the Studio has. From everything I've read, the S.C. has a bore size of either 0.458", or 0.459", so it is virtually identical with that of the Studio (listed as being 0.460").

I am so pleased to be able to acquire this version of Super Collegiate trumpet again, because, for me at least, it has a very easy, and responsive blow, and an open feel to it, plus its sound has a "zing" and lively energy to it unlike any other horn I have owned and played to date. I really enjoy playing it, but wonder if I might enjoy owning/playing a Studio even more, or are they pretty similar, and much the same in how they play?
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1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once bought an Olds Studio and was glad to sell it again. To me a very overrated model, it did certainly not outplay the Olds Super from the same era nor did it out-sound it: Compared to the Super I found the Studio flat sounding, one dimentional.
The Studio is a looker, for shure but not worth to stay awake for.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I have most and am familiar with all involved (I don't say "both" because each of the models mentioned, including the Super, had multiple, significantly different, iterations.

The SuperCollegiate began in 1950 as a step-up to the bottom-sprung Collegiate 507 called the 607 Special Deluxe. Basically the same horn, but built to higher standards of materials including to-sprung valves, a throw on third, and the brass bell stem with nickel flare. These were decent responding, excellent projecting, and (by today's standards certainly) very well built horns.

1955-1957, the Special Deluxe was renamed 608 SuperCollegiate, but remained otherwise the same. 1958-1965, the bell stem was changed to red brass along with other minor tweaks, and the horn lost some of its brightness and ability to project with ease - though the model number and name went unchanged.

While the original 1948-1965 Olds Studio may have looked similar to the later SuperCollegiate, there was little in common. The Studio was a top line professional horn that offered fantastic response, and the ability to color tone with ease. It projected as well as anything available by that time. It was, as Olds named it, a studio horn.

In 1965, Olds went on a cost cutting kick and destroyed the Studio. It transitioned to a low-quality build, in all yellow brass, and all of the playing characteristics changed. From one catalog to another, Olds marketing could not even make of their mind if it was the most, or least, open horn they sold. Essentially, it became an overpriced toy.

If these were hammers, the Special Deluxe and SuperCollegiate would be Stanley and Irwin respectively (good quality, ueable tools), while the original Studio would be an Estwing (like Vaughn, a premium tool for serious users) and the later Studio something more like a Workpro (Amazon brand - still not Amazon basics or Yiyitool, but...)

The Super offered in comparison is likewise a moving target. The Super evolved quire a bit over the years from the first light and responsive, yet very warm Supers, to the famous silver plated Supers of the WWII period that light up like nothing else, to the much heavier, much more all-around Supers that followed in the 50s and 60s. Eventually there was a Super with an UltraSonic bell, that was yet another drastic shift - and also with a different UltrSonic explosion-formed bell, the SuperStar which is often mistaken for a Super derivative, but is a completely different commercial horn.

So your question is hard to answer when the objects are not particularly well defined.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Studio was a top line professional horn that offered fantastic response, and the ability to color tone with ease. It projected as well as anything available by that time. It was, as Olds named it, a studio horn.


Marketing BS, nothing more.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manuel de los Campos wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Studio was a top line professional horn that offered fantastic response, and the ability to color tone with ease. It projected as well as anything available by that time. It was, as Olds named it, a studio horn.


Marketing BS, nothing more.

Well, I guess sometimes we will agree to an extent
Manuel de los Campos wrote:
22B is in every aspect superior to all other horns I tried and I tried a lot, from Selmer L radials, Conn Connstellation, King Super 20 to Yamaha Z horns.

Manuel de los Campos wrote:
The Recording to me is an overrated horn, a looker for shure but nothing special

Although while I may have played more hours on a 22B than anything else, I recognize that it is often not the right tool for the particular job and use something a bit more modern (A Shew for instance, using that list, would make my life at least easier in most performance settings than my 22Bs - no matter how much I enjoy playing them solo). Likewise, while I dislike the Recording (ironic given I love my Recording trombone), I know that a lot of people find it a good choice for them.

And other times, like now regarding the Studio (original, not gen 2), we will disagree.
Manuel de los Campos wrote:
Since I have found my Getzen 700S the quest for finding the perfect trumpet for me has ended

Manuel de los Campos wrote:
I would recomment the Getzen 700 Eterna II above the Mod. Severinsen

Personally, I’ld go for the Getzen Proteus. Even Getzen on their site calls the 700 an “intermediate grade Bb trumpet”. (https://www.getzen.com/trumpets/700-series/)

Luckily, there's lots of options out there for all of us. But the first Studios were good horns - just maybe not for you.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Manuel de los Campos wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The Studio was a top line professional horn that offered fantastic response, and the ability to color tone with ease. It projected as well as anything available by that time. It was, as Olds named it, a studio horn.


Marketing BS, nothing more.



Luckily, there's lots of options out there for all of us. But the first Studios were good horns - just maybe not for you.


What is your definition of a 'good horn'? To me a good horn is a horn with reliabel valves, decent solder job, good working slides and no intonation issues. The Studio fits in this picture. The late 40's Studio I posessed was a good horn in that sense.
But soundwise, compared to a King Super 20 and an Olds Super from app. the same year of build I was dissappointed big time.
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Brassman19
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Location: Fort Worth, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Ron, for all the information. I appreciate your knowledge and expertise greatly.

I suspected that appearance of similarity does not mean the two horns are, or play and sound the same. Still, my Super Collegiate plays and responds very well for me, and it is a fun horn to play.

As you said, its materials and build quality are very good, and it is a satisfying horn to hold (it has a very solid feel to it, plus its styling is sleek, and attractive to look at). Its valves and slides move and operate very smoothly and easily, and its bell is responsive, with its nickel silver flare being very resonant, and gives me good feedback behind the bell. It is good to get your confirmation that it is a good horn, and I honestly could be content playing just it, along with my 1960 Olds Special trumpet when I want a horn with a bit darker, warmer sound to it.

That being said, I believe that somewhere down the line I probably will plan on getting myself a 1950's/early 60's Studio trumpet, so I can enjoy its refinement, and higher level of response and performance capabilities.

Larry
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1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,
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