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One for the physicists


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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from Barry Truax. It’s the first thing that you get if you google resonator amplifier

https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Resonator.html
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry Truax, the composer? Or a different one with physics credentials?

Edit: One of the things Richard Feynman (a physicist I met) really disliked was misused terms in textbooks and casual conversation. He could be rather dogged about correcting them, often providing accurate replacement terms and statement, to try to keep the definitions from becoming "just random noise in the language". It was a losing battle most of the time...
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Barry Truax, the composer? Or a different one with physics credentials?

Edit: One of the things Richard Feynman (a physicist I met) really disliked was misused terms in textbooks and casual conversation. He could be rather dogged about correcting them, often providing accurate replacement terms and statement, to try to keep the definitions from becoming "just random noise in the language". It was a losing battle most of the time...


According to the Canadian Encyclopedia:

Quote:
Truax, Barry (Douglas). Composer, soundscape researcher, b Chatham, Ont, 10 May 1947; B SC (Queen's) 1969, M MUS (British Columbia) 1971. After training in mathematics and physics at Queen's University and in composition with Cortland Hultberg at the University of British Columbia, Truax studied 1971-3 at the Institute of Sonology, Utrecht University, with G.M. Koenig and Otto Laske. He met R. Murray Schafer while attending the University of British Columbia and, at the end of his studies in Utrecht, Schafer invited him to Simon Fraser University to work on the World Soundscape Project. On his return to Canada in 1973, Truax therefore began teaching in the Department of Communication and at the Centre for Communication and the Arts, Simon Fraser University, and became a research assistant (and later research director) with the World Soundscape Project there. In 1985 he was conference director for the International Computer Conference in Vancouver. Later he worked on an advanced computer music board at Simon Fraser's Centre for Image/Sound Research (CISR). He served on the City of Vancouver's Urban Noise Task Force 1996-7.


So it seems he has at least some applicable education.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Barry Truax, the composer? Or a different one with physics credentials?

Edit: One of the things Richard Feynman (a physicist I met) really disliked was misused terms in textbooks and casual conversation. He could be rather dogged about correcting them, often providing accurate replacement terms and statement, to try to keep the definitions from becoming "just random noise in the language". It was a losing battle most of the time...


According to the Canadian Encyclopedia:

Quote:
Truax, Barry (Douglas). Composer, soundscape researcher, b Chatham, Ont, 10 May 1947; B SC (Queen's) 1969, M MUS (British Columbia) 1971. After training in mathematics and physics at Queen's University and in composition with Cortland Hultberg at the University of British Columbia, Truax studied 1971-3 at the Institute of Sonology, Utrecht University, with G.M. Koenig and Otto Laske. He met R. Murray Schafer while attending the University of British Columbia and, at the end of his studies in Utrecht, Schafer invited him to Simon Fraser University to work on the World Soundscape Project. On his return to Canada in 1973, Truax therefore began teaching in the Department of Communication and at the Centre for Communication and the Arts, Simon Fraser University, and became a research assistant (and later research director) with the World Soundscape Project there. In 1985 he was conference director for the International Computer Conference in Vancouver. Later he worked on an advanced computer music board at Simon Fraser's Centre for Image/Sound Research (CISR). He served on the City of Vancouver's Urban Noise Task Force 1996-7.


So it seems he has at least some applicable education.


Good to know, but "resonant amplifier" without an amplifier goes against all I learned. But nobody is going to change any minds, and the vast majority don't care, so I'm out.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
So, why is this complicated?


Yes, the world is clearly flat!
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use terms that have specific meanings but want them to mean something else or something non-specific, how does that help?

When a discipline seeks to become more formalized, one of the first things done is to create a language of defined terms so that future discussions can be carried out from an agreed upon base. We are not there yet with trumpet pedagogy.

You have to be especially careful using words that have a specific meaning in another discipline, though it can be done. Dental calculus is quite different from mathematical calculus.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resonators can indeed increase the perceived loudness in certain situations. Those who wish to define "amplification" as passive insist on its use in any situation including resonators, wave guides, acoustic reflectors etc.

"Resonance amplifier" is an oxymoron. When "resonator" is completely sufficient.

Another example of popular but redundant use of a term is "flowrate". "Flow" is, by definition, a rate.

My question is still (conveniently) unanswered: Where is the perfectly formed but soft trumpet tone that is being "amplified" by the trumpet? How is it generated without the trumpet?

It is obvious that the sound we produce is by a "played" resonator. Not an "amplifier" of buzzed lips. This is far different than a violin body, a vibraphone resonator or a gramophone, etc., where the vibrating source is minimally influenced by the wave guide or resonator.

If you insist on defining a resonator, as a "natural amplifier of some sort", that is your choice. But you must then define "amplifier" inaccurately or as you see fit.
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R. Dale Olson
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pertinent to the post by "Proteus" of several days ago, the quick response to the inquiry basically about learning more technical information on mouthpieces is basic: study and read.

There exists more technical writings concerning various elements of mouthpieces than most people understand. It does, however, require concentrated efforts to find this information. Information gained on any trumpet-centric website must be evaluated as a function of the source, and such is highly questionable, and typically unknown. Go to the scholars and researchers, not other trumpet players.

As a beginning, one of the , if not the, most well-written book that contains reliable information about mouthpieces is, "Musicians Guide to Aco0ustics", by Clive Greated and Murray Campbell of the University of Edinburgh.  This book is usually available on sites such as "AbeBooks", etc. at modest prices.

When the basics contained in the Greated/Campbell book has been assimilated, one may move to more technical writings from scholarly journals. Only within the past three days have I received three works of considerable interest. 1) Embouchure Muscle Activity in Students and Elite Trumpeters: Alan Watson and Kevin Price: 2) Three-Dimensional simulation of sound propagation in a trumpet with accurate mouthpiece geometry" (Janelle Resch), 3) Evaluation of 3D printed mouthpieces for musical instruments (Antonio Bacciaglia, et. al.).

All of these academic works may be found by searching the Internet, often with free downloads at sites such as Academia.Edu and ResearchGate.Com.

It is generally agreed, among the true authorities, that the relationship between specific elements of trumpet mouthpieces and concomitant musical/performance characteristics is the least understood, and most rarely researched issue.

With respect, it is additionally (albeit silently) a truism among the foremost mouthpiece researchers that the least reliable source of technical information is those who sell mouthpiece. Study the scholars, not those burdened with an economic bias.

R. Dale Olson
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Steve A wrote:
...it changes the sound from a buzz to a musical tone (hopefully), and makes it much more powerful, ...

--------------------------
This is where the contention starts ...

It doesn't add power (make anything 'more powerful') - it manipulates the player's 'energy output' into a high proportion of sound energy that has loudness.


I get the distinction you're trying to make (in fact, I'm pretty sure I already said basically the same thing earlier in the thread), but I think pretty much anyone can agree that, as I said, the sound that results when we add the trumpet into the equation is much more powerful than it would be otherwise.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
the sound that results when we add the trumpet into the equation is much more powerful than it would be otherwise.


kaliah wrote:
Where is the perfectly formed but soft trumpet tone that is being "amplified" by the trumpet? How is it generated without the trumpet?
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air exists in the horn. Its not a vacuum. Nodes are mentioned by trumpet makers & people also. There is a lot of craftsmanship that goes into making the trumpet. Some trumpets have the nodes moved around from what I gathered. I think it was Pops who said that Flip had adjusted these nodes to where notes above double c had “slots” which is a big deal for placing notes as a player.

Whether or not you believe there is a “standing wave” that gets activated or not is up to you. However a person can hit the mpc receiver of the trumpet with or without a mouthpiece in it and a note comes out. Then you can ask whether or not a standing wave caused it or something else. Some say the trumpet amplifies what the player is doing. Some have said that the mouthpiece amplifies what the lip does. Ie lip buzzing.

There are different camps on these topics but hopefully you can get the answers you are looking for.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However a person can hit the mpc receiver of the trumpet with or without a mouthpiece in it and a note comes out. Then you can ask whether or not a standing wave caused it or something else.


When you hit the instrument the "tone" (or ring) you hear is not only a standing wave but EVERY resonance frequency mode sounding at once. They are standing waves but decay quickly as they transmit out of the bell.

A palm-pop of the mouthpiece is a very good classic impulse function input. Observing the sound with a frequency analyzer shows the instrument's resonance response. This is a known mathematical principle related to measuring and predicting frequency response.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Understanding that the Trumpet is a resonator helps me to play better. I am an Absolute Beginner - 7 years in - but when I play I am focusing on finding the "sweet spot" where the notes lives /resonates / you can feel the resonance of the horn in your hands, back of your mouth, head. Somehow this helps me more than thinking about trying to amplify sound.
After reading this thread I now need to get my head round the idea that the Horn is indeed 7 or 8 resonators. Physics or Magic?!
Thanks for your patience Kalijah.
cheers Steve
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Shifty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
Hi
Understanding that the Trumpet is a resonator helps me to play better. I am an Absolute Beginner - 7 years in - but when I play I am focusing on finding the "sweet spot" where the notes lives /resonates / you can feel the resonance of the horn in your hands, back of your mouth, head. Somehow this helps me more than thinking about trying to amplify sound.
After reading this thread I now need to get my head round the idea that the Horn is indeed 7 or 8 resonators. Physics or Magic?!
Thanks for your patience Kalijah.
cheers Steve

Understanding the underlying physics and the choice of precise and accurate terms to describe what really happens CAN make a difference in pedagogy.

I (once again) salute Kalijah.
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