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Locked Vs Unlocked Embouchures


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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All...Let me ask a question on the meaning of locked vs unlocked, after reading through 3 pages of posts.

Is a locked embouchure one that is formed by saying the letter "M", & locking the corners against the teeth...

versus an unlocked embouchure where one unfurls their lips (like Lynn Nicholson) & just relaxes his corners?
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
Hello All...Let me ask a question on the meaning of locked vs unlocked, after reading through 3 pages of posts.

Is a locked embouchure one that is formed by saying the letter "M", & locking the corners against the teeth...

versus an unlocked embouchure where one unfurls their lips (like Lynn Nicholson) & just relaxes his corners?


You can 'm' without locking your corners, and you can unfurl your lips while keeping the corners firm. Nothing in trumpet playing is simple, unfortunately!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
... versus an unlocked embouchure where one unfurls their lips (like Lynn Nicholson) & just relaxes his corners?

----------------------------------
Is it generally possible to maintain and control lip position and flexibility with 'relaxed' corners?
I can understand 'reducing' the amount of corner activity, but completely relaxed?
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jay. I don't think he means completely relaxed, but at least in place; but not "riveted" to your teeth. I'm just trying to understand what the embouchure formation looks like unlocked vs locked. What is the difference between these two embouchures? How are both formed? Can someone post a picture of the two so we can see what they are? (Picture worth a thousand words)?
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
Hello Jay. I don't think he means completely relaxed, but at least in place; but not "riveted" to your teeth. I'm just trying to understand what the embouchure formation looks like unlocked vs locked. What is the difference between these two embouchures? How are both formed? Can someone post a picture of the two so we can see what they are? (Picture worth a thousand words)?


Your questions assume that the OP is 100% correct: that all embouchures can fall into 1 of 2 boxes and that "unlocked," which is not properly defined, is the desirable box to be in.

Since he has not described it physically, just listed the "symptoms" of an "unlocked" embouchure, by their method, you should aim for those "symptoms" rather than any verifiable physical attributes, i.e., you should try and achieve the qualities he lists rather than the physical attributes he omits.

Basically, if you look at a bad player's embouchure and a good player's embouchure, they will be locked and unlocked respectively, even if they look the same.
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello & thanks for your response. The concepts are well taken. But for my sake & at my level, I'd like to see what a locked & unlocked embouchure setup actually looks like, with a few words of explanation of each. Show how both are "formed"
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
Hello & thanks for your response. The concepts are well taken. But for my sake & at my level, I'd like to see what a locked & unlocked embouchure setup actually looks like, with a few words of explanation of each. Show how both are "formed"


Let me be a little clearer: locked vs. unlocked does not exist
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does 'locked' mean using extreme corner tension even when it is not needed?
Perhaps some players get the idea that their corners must always be 'fully engaged', and then struggle with how to make good lip adjustments.
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Does 'locked' mean using extreme corner tension even when it is not needed?
Perhaps some players get the idea that their corners must always be 'fully engaged', and then struggle with how to make good lip adjustments.


Locked is a figment of somebody's imagination.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It must be true if you read it here.
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this is what; four pages of conceptual BS?
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
So this is what; four pages of conceptual BS?


Precisely. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of USEFUL conceptual BS in the world. Pages of it, in fact. But in this particular case, the OP has created a binary embouchure system where the labeling makes it seem like there is a physical attribute associated with it, which there is not. So if you take his description of good playing (aka "unlocked"), it could be useful conceptual BS, but not in the context of this particular "embouchure system."

When somebody is trying to talk about something concrete, physical, repeatable, photographable, etc., be wary of descriptions that are not very precise and fail to account for multiple factors.
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I hear that. Maybe a picture & a brief description of something that someone is trying to convey. A good example of a brief description with a picture would be an embouchure concept or "type." Call me an idiot (actually call me anything you want; just don't call me late for dinner), but a picture says what 10 pages of BS DOESN'T SAY!
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
So this is what; four pages of conceptual BS?


It's a meaningless distinction. It's basically someone saying that there are two types of players - Ones that play really well, and ones that don't. And giving them the names "locked" and "Unlocked".

The difference between the mechanics of these two alleged types of players remains unspecified. So at the end of the day, everyone is talking about what they think these words mean.

Aren't the emperor's new clothes remarkable?
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why yes, yes they are!!
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