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High Note Air Pressure Survey



 
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olympicfan2
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Joined: 20 Jan 2024
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:22 pm    Post subject: High Note Air Pressure Survey Reply with quote

Hello guys

I´m very excited to introduce myself to this forum. My name is Maximilian from Germany and I´m actually a chemist and CTA in my M.Sc. program currently. I started to pick up the trumpet shortly after I turned 23 - that was in October 2017. I only had three trumpet lessons in 2018 - two of them with a private teacher and one with Prof. Malte Burba - the rest is self taught via books and the internet.

I started this topic because I have been reading that there are quite a few members that claim to have real solid high notes inbetween a double G and double C. The teacher I used to study with is a lead player and has once done me the favour of playing a scale up to a mezzoforte double A. Because I´m a scientist and like to discover things in a universally accepted way, I wanted to ask you guys who have solid range up the double G to C area if you can measure the air pressure in the oral cavity. I ask you to do this while playing a thee octave diatonic or chromatic scale with at least mezzoforte volume to your highest note and not chance the dynamics while doing that. Then post the pressure values for every note. Also I ask you to not change the embochure and just use air compression and tongue arch to get there. It´s important that only players who can play these notes for real take part in this survey. Players who didn´t own these notes are not adressed.

The way you measure it is up to you, but it´s important to measure it at least in between the gums and the tongue where the air is channeled and holding out each note at least as long as it takes for the pressure in the device and the body to equilize. I recommend getting a cheap manometer that goes from 0 to 5 P.S.I or 0 to 250 mmHg and then record the needle so it´s easier to write down the values. To gain more compareable result´s, I further recommend to use a decibel meter and place it around one meter in front of the bell on your music stand.

I found this useful video here on youtube that gives you a complete picture of what I´m talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1YCSjNLaw

In case you really have a double C, you should be able to build up around 4 P.S.I. while playing it, as this video and other studies suggest.

Hope for some members to also be interested and share their results. Thanks in advance for participating.


Last edited by olympicfan2 on Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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Quadstriker
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Joined: 14 Dec 2021
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says the Germans don't have a sense of humor?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also I ask you to not change the embochure and just use air compression and tongue arch to get there.


Not possible.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: High Note Air Pressure Survey Reply with quote

olympicfan2 wrote:
Because I´m a scientist


olympicfan2 wrote:
The way you measure it is up to you


These two are mutually exclusive.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
These two are mutually exclusive.


I believe he meant: the choice of pressure sensor is up to you. Gauge, electronic device, etc., and units of measure can all be converted.

https://www.engineeringenotes.com/fluids/measurement-of-pressure/list-of-pressure-measuring-devices-fluid-mechanics/46972
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olympicfan2
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Who says the Germans don't have a sense of humor?


Hehe, I was also having humor in regards to americans in mind when I wrote my post.

Quote:
Not possible.


That got me thinking again. I know that in the "Tongue Arch ?" - thread you proclaimed the tongue is not involved in altering the pitch. Honestly, I can´t - by own experimentation - disprove that statement, but the players should understand the point. No different reset or drastic changes in the mechanics of the embochure. No second "cheater embochure". One smooth and fluid scale at best or with an additional breath.

For a further discussion about tongue arch I suggest we move to that topic.


Quote:
These two are mutually exclusive.


Well.. I´d be happy to hear some important variables I haven´t considered in my description then.

best regards
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: High Note Air Pressure Survey Reply with quote

olympicfan2 wrote:
...I´m a scientist and like to discover things in a universally accepted way...


I doubt you'll find that around this forum... Good luck.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: High Note Air Pressure Survey Reply with quote

olympicfan2 wrote:
... Also I ask you to not change the embochure and just use air compression and tongue arch to get there. ...


olympicfan2 wrote:
...
Quote:
These two are mutually exclusive.


Well.. I´d be happy to hear some important variables I haven´t considered in my description then.

best regards

------------------------------------------------
My understanding about being 'mutually exclusive' is that it is impossible to have the embouchure 'not change' when internal air pressure is increased - because the lips DO change to accommodate the pressure change. And it is very typical for tongue arch to result in changes to the tissue of the embouchure, including jaw position.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

olympicfan2 wrote:
Quote:
These two are mutually exclusive.


Well.. I´d be happy to hear some important variables I haven´t considered in my description then.

The basis of scientific research is to create a controlled setup that is consistent and repeatable. Telling a bunch of random internet strangers that are unlikely to have any scientific training to 'just measure any way they want', using devices of their choice, without any form of instructions isn't gonna get reliable results. At the very least you should provide specific, detailed instructions that non-educated test subjects can follow, and preferably limit the number of uncontrolled variables (such as using calibrated devices, repeatable measuring methods, being more specific of the exact location in the mouth, requesting video recordings of the test taking place, setting up the decibel meter at a specific distance, doing control tests, performing the test multiple times per testperson, etc.).

In proper scientific research, ideally these tests would be performed by the researcher in a controlled setting to reduce the number of procedural and measuring errors.
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olympicfan2
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Joined: 20 Jan 2024
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My understanding about being 'mutually exclusive' is that it is impossible to have the embouchure 'not change' when internal air pressure is increased - because the lips DO change to accommodate the pressure change. And it is very typical for tongue arch to result in changes to the tissue of the embouchure, including jaw position.


okay... but he was actually referring to something else in his post.

Quote:
The basis of scientific research is to create a controlled setup that is consistent and repeatable.


Disclaimer in case you thought this is supposed to be a REAL and publishable scientific study. There is no way I could do it like this. But it should still yield valuable information.

I would stick to the test person repeating it multiple times. But really I don´t think there is much that can go wrong. The calibration of the measuring device I find to be not so critical, mostly because I don´t think anyone would like to spend much money for a calibrated device. Usually instruments produce some systematic errors. But these shouldn´t be so dramatic that they cause intolerable differences in accuracy. If the limit is a maximum of +- 5 % difference, It be fine. For the distance of the decibel meter - I already mentioned around one meter from the bell. We could also talk about additive errors here and say that someone with a too close decibel meter records too high values, along with the decibel meter being inaccurate and show too much measured values, combined with a pressure gauge showing too little value, resulting in a worst case error of say +- 15 % of mmHg / dB for a specific note. The size and interior of the room also matter a bit of course. Things I can´t control. So after all what I could do is to say dB - meter exatly one meter away from the bell, three times repeat of the measurement and a video with sound please. But who would want to get an expensive calibrated pressure gauge. In case someone shows unusual result´s, I might further investigate. After all I am just curious to see if these guys really have extreme stamina or a different technique. And for that I don´t have to measure with very high prescision and accuracy.
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Wesley
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Joined: 18 Oct 2023
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:32 pm    Post subject: high note air pressure survey Reply with quote

The prior responses have prompted me to write from my experience.

When I studied under one of William Vacciano's (Lead at NY Philharmonic Orchestra & Professor at Julliard, Manhattan and Mein Schools of Music) students in the mid 1960's I read an article on this subject.

Air Pressure required to play trumpet runs 30 to 35 PSI, and can frequently exceed that!

I cannot qualify it or add anything. It is information I found both remarkedly exciting and memorable. So...FYI.

Wesley
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

35 psi?
Not a chance.

Its from just above zero for low soft tones to about 2 to 3.5 psig max for very loud high tones. More or less depending on the efficiency of the player's tone production.
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stumac
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years ago I did test the oral pressure of several trumpet players using a W and T 0-170 inches of water gauge precision pressure gauge.

I was looking to determine the minimum pressure required to sustain a note, I had the player play a note at a medium volume and decrescendo until it no longer sounded.

The Results, Low C 5"wg third space C 12"wg high C 30"wg
extrapolating using 2-1/2 times per octave double C 75"wg which equals 2.7psi.

Regards, Stuart.
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