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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:24 am    Post subject: Gold plate Reply with quote

Hi

My Bach 37 was refinished by Eclipse in their 24ct scratch gold plating with 24ct gold plated highlights. I notice that they no longer offer this finish, the only gold plate option being 24ct gold plate highlights with silver plate. I presume that the reason for this is the cost of gold plate.

Does anyone know what the price nowadays would be to fully gold plate a trumpet? I notice that Eclipse charge £175 extra just for 24kt gold accents. I believe that I paid an extra £100 over silver-plate for my whole trumpet to be scratch gold plated with gold plated highlights. It sounds like it would be a lot more today, if it £175 just for 24ct gold highlights.

Many thanks

Lou
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Louise,
I haven't checked w/Anderson S.P. in a long time, but they price on the spot price of gold and silver. The last time I asked it was something like $2,000 US to gold plate an entire instrument and one mouthpiece included. That's cost, no markup.
Others may do it more cheaply and you get what you pay for, generally.
-Lionel
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody who knows more can answer, but usually the cost of gold-plating a trumpet (well) seems to mirror the cost of 1oz of gold. Today that is around 2024USD or 1604GBP.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Gold plate Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
...
Does anyone know what the price nowadays would be to fully gold plate a trumpet? I notice that Eclipse charge £175 extra just for 24kt gold accents. I believe that I paid an extra £100 over silver-plate for my whole trumpet to be scratch gold plated with gold plated highlights. ...

-------------------------------
A big part of the cost of having an instrument refinished is the labor involved in preparing the surface. Sure the cost of the material would be a factor (and gold is quite expensive), but even having a plain brass instrument completely refinished with lacquer would be expensive due to the labor involved.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much, this is really appreciated.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
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Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Gold plate Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
...
Does anyone know what the price nowadays would be to fully gold plate a trumpet? I notice that Eclipse charge £175 extra just for 24kt gold accents. I believe that I paid an extra £100 over silver-plate for my whole trumpet to be scratch gold plated with gold plated highlights. ...

-------------------------------
A big part of the cost of having an instrument refinished is the labor involved in preparing the surface. Sure the cost of the material would be a factor (and gold is quite expensive), but even having a plain brass instrument completely refinished with lacquer would be expensive due to the labor involved.


So you can pile the labor on top of $2000US!
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Gold plate Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
...
Does anyone know what the price nowadays would be to fully gold plate a trumpet? I notice that Eclipse charge £175 extra just for 24kt gold accents. I believe that I paid an extra £100 over silver-plate for my whole trumpet to be scratch gold plated with gold plated highlights. ...

-------------------------------
A big part of the cost of having an instrument refinished is the labor involved in preparing the surface. Sure the cost of the material would be a factor (and gold is quite expensive), but even having a plain brass instrument completely refinished with lacquer would be expensive due to the labor involved.


So you can pile the labor on top of $2000US!


Thanks very much, this is really appreciated.

Just to clarify, I'm not thinking of having it done. The reason I was asking, as although I realise that the cost of gold plate/the labour costs of refinishing are not added onto the value of a used horn, I feel that having an expensive finish on my Bach 37 is a consideration if I ever decide to sell it, trade it in, or make changes to it which would require partial re-gold plating.

When I tried my trumpet in around 2008, it was in raw brass. I believe that Leigh was asking £150 to have it refinished in silver-plate v £250 to have it refinished in the 24ct scratch gold finish that I chose. He no longer offers this finish, only scratch lacquer, and I imagine it is owing to the current cost of gold.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to show how much the cost of gold has spiked, I had an old Bach gold-plated in about 2004 and it was something like $400 cost.

BTW, I won't be doing that again, even if I felt like spending big bucks - horn didn't play the same when it was plated that way.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,
I must say, I always learn something when you post a question. Thanks for the education.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Gold plate Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
The reason I was asking, as although I realise that the cost of gold plate/the labour costs of refinishing are not added onto the value of a used horn, I feel that having an expensive finish on my Bach 37 is a consideration if I ever decide to sell it, trade it in, or make changes to it which would require partial re-gold plating.


Speaking from my perspective, most serious buyers do consider gold-plating in the final value of the horn. I personally add $500-$800 or maybe 25% in value depending on the age of the horn and the quality of the finish (I've never thought about in concrete numbers or percentages, just tend to feel it lol).

Scratch-gold, at least from my perspective, is a personalized finish rather than a finish that is universally accepted; that is to say, you might have to make a concession to move it quickly if selling as the buyer field might be reduced.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Just to show how much the cost of gold has spiked, I had an old Bach gold-plated in about 2004 and it was something like $400 cost.

BTW, I won't be doing that again, even if I felt like spending big bucks - horn didn't play the same when it was plated that way.


Thanks very much, and very interesting, although no doubt annoying, that you felt that your Bach did not play well after gold plating. Would you mind explaining this further, and whether you have any ideas fir why this may be the case.

I went with gold plate for the reason that lacquer is supposed to warm the sound, silver-plate is supposed to brighten the sound, and gold-plate is meant to keep the sound of raw brass, because I like how it sounded in raw brass. I went for the scratch finish, because I’ve always loved the frosted finish of the old Imperials. Sadly a lot of them, including my Imperial cornet, have had the finish removed in some way.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Lou,
I must say, I always learn something when you post a question. Thanks for the education.


You are very welcome.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Gold plate Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
The reason I was asking, as although I realise that the cost of gold plate/the labour costs of refinishing are not added onto the value of a used horn, I feel that having an expensive finish on my Bach 37 is a consideration if I ever decide to sell it, trade it in, or make changes to it which would require partial re-gold plating.


Speaking from my perspective, most serious buyers do consider gold-plating in the final value of the horn. I personally add $500-$800 or maybe 25% in value depending on the age of the horn and the quality of the finish (I've never thought about in concrete numbers or percentages, just tend to feel it lol).

Scratch-gold, at least from my perspective, is a personalized finish rather than a finish that is universally accepted; that is to say, you might have to make a concession to move it quickly if selling as the buyer field might be reduced.


Thanks very much. Reduce the price for a quick sale as 24ct scratch gold plate may not be to everyone’s taste, even though we’ve ascertained that this is an expensive finish nowadays? It is a good job that I am actually not planning on selling.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fellow player around here had his then-new B flat trumpet gold-plated, oh, I'd say around 2018 or so, and it cost him $1,600, if memory serves. He has a lush, warm sound and his horn has a bronze-alloy bell, and I reckon the gold plate augmented those timbral characteristics. Was it worth the cost? I suppose that's an individual decision/choice.

One aspect of gold plate: it does come off more easily / faster than other plating materials (or so I've been told). I don't know if that's due to the nature of gold or the thinness of the plating or if it's even objectively true, but my friend holds the valve block with a cloth and is always, always wiping moisture and whatnot off the horn. Like multiple times a rehearsal or performance.

My vote for most user-friendly plating is nickel: my Connstellation cornet, which is nickel-plated, never ever shows tarnish, fingerprints or looks anything less than gleaming.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
A fellow player around here had his then-new B flat trumpet gold-plated, oh, I'd say around 2018 or so, and it cost him $1,600, if memory serves. He has a lush, warm sound and his horn has a bronze-alloy bell, and I reckon the gold plate augmented those timbral characteristics. Was it worth the cost? I suppose that's an individual decision/choice.

One aspect of gold plate: it does come off more easily / faster than other plating materials (or so I've been told). I don't know if that's due to the nature of gold or the thinness of the plating or if it's even objectively true, but my friend holds the valve block with a cloth and is always, always wiping moisture and whatnot off the horn. Like multiple times a rehearsal or performance.

My vote for most user-friendly plating is nickel: my Connstellation cornet, which is nickel-plated, never ever shows tarnish, fingerprints or looks anything less than gleaming.


Thanks v much. I don’t know, but I believe that gold is softer than silver. Whether or not the plating is thinner, quite possibly as gold is played over silver-plate. I’ve never had any issues with the finish, but it hasn’t had a huge amount of playing time since it was gold plated, not having been my primary horn for the last eight years.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Ronnman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
yourbrass wrote:

BTW, I won't be doing that again, even if I felt like spending big bucks - horn didn't play the same when it was plated that way.


Thanks very much, and very interesting, although no doubt annoying, that you felt that your Bach did not play well after gold plating. Would you mind explaining this further, and whether you have any ideas fir why this may be the case.


Lou - The gold plating, over silver plating, may have changed the density of the horn. Gold is almost twice the density of silver and more than twice that of brass and cooper. This could change the resonance of the components, locations of nodes and anti-nodes, thus changing the way the horn sounds or speaks. It could be better or worst than before the gold plating.
Ron




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kerouack
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked in a very professional place in Germany and price of gold plating was 1.500 euros.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnman wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
yourbrass wrote:

BTW, I won't be doing that again, even if I felt like spending big bucks - horn didn't play the same when it was plated that way.


Thanks very much, and very interesting, although no doubt annoying, that you felt that your Bach did not play well after gold plating. Would you mind explaining this further, and whether you have any ideas fir why this may be the case.


Lou - The gold plating, over silver plating, may have changed the density of the horn. Gold is almost twice the density of silver and more than twice that of brass and cooper. This could change the resonance of the components, locations of nodes and anti-nodes, thus changing the way the horn sounds or speaks. It could be better or worst than before the gold plating.
Ron





Thanks very much, Ron, and very interesting.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerouack wrote:
I asked in a very professional place in Germany and price of gold plating was 1.500 euros.


Thanks very much.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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kerouack
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for a lot of things we would need a more scientific approach than just " opinions ".
To check how the plating affect the sound or playing characteristics of an horn we would need different models of horns, very very similar, and 4 or 5 of each one, each one with one finish. And check them with eyes closed, and do recordings of them and do a double blinded test. And check the sound spectrum with some machine.

I mean, I think is imposible to check an horn in server plate, gold plating it, and two weeks later play it again and know if it plays warmer or not.
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