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Changing Tongue Type



 
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DanEuph
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Joined: 17 Aug 2022
Posts: 24
Location: Wales, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 5:33 am    Post subject: Changing Tongue Type Reply with quote

Hi all, asking here as I think the replies will be beneficial for all, not just me! I currently use the anchored tonguing method (I learned it during my Claude Gordon phase as a youngster, where he called it KTM tonguing). Beforehand I used to articulate through my lips for everything, even multiple tonguing! When it comes to changing your tongue type, I can't seem to find much Reinhardt literature on the process. I'm guessing you practice the new tongue type a little bit every day until it starts to become 2nd nature, as with the rest of the Reinhardt stuff?

If I place my tongue behind my top teeth, I can manage simple attacks, but struggle with clarity for the extreme highs and lows. I also find fast articulations difficult and multiple tonguing comes out quite sloppy and choked... I'm guessing this is simply a strength issue as my tongue is doing an unfamiliar movement and will go away with practice? I play to a very high standard using KTM, so it's not like I'm crippled by it, but I suspect it's probably not the most natural thing for me to be doing.
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patdublc
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 1059
Location: Salisbury, MD

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting topic. I won't attempt to advise you because I'm not an expert. Maybe someone like Doug Elliott will chime in on this.

But, I will share my personal journey. I played for many years with my tongue behind my top teeth. Based on observing the many top professionals that "anchor" tongue, I took some advice from several of them and tried it. To be honest, it didn't go so well at first. It took a long time to develop the coordination.
Fast forward, I use both methods - primarily KTM but for some playing, I still tongue behind my upper teeth. It has become very ingrained.
At this point, its just like circular breathing - I don't even think about; it just happens. My tongue goes to the position that works best for what I'm playing without me consciously making the choice.
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Doug Elliott
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Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1197
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember a time when I tongued behind my top teeth... before Reinhardt got me to try tonguing farther back, away from my teeth. It frees up the lip vibration and opens up the sound when you get back away from the teeth. And although it took a long time to get used to it, the articulation is cleaner and faster.

I find double and triple tonguing in that position helps to define where and how to single tongue. Part of the advantage to that position is that it allows the articulation to be a short "up and down" tongue tip motion instead of a forward and backward motion that's longer, slower, and involves more of the tongue.
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DanEuph
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Joined: 17 Aug 2022
Posts: 24
Location: Wales, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2024 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Elliott wrote:
I remember a time when I tongued behind my top teeth... before Reinhardt got me to try tonguing farther back, away from my teeth. It frees up the lip vibration and opens up the sound when you get back away from the teeth. And although it took a long time to get used to it, the articulation is cleaner and faster.

I find double and triple tonguing in that position helps to define where and how to single tongue. Part of the advantage to that position is that it allows the articulation to be a short "up and down" tongue tip motion instead of a forward and backward motion that's longer, slower, and involves more of the tongue.


Thanks Doug, interesting! My tongue is tending to go back as well when I tongue at the roof of the mouth, it's getting better every day, but fast articulations are still sounding a little choked, it's like the tongue just stays wedged up there and doesn't want to move. Articulations in isolation are getting better. What sort of stuff did Doc have you do? Simple scales and articulated exercises?
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DanEuph
Regular Member


Joined: 17 Aug 2022
Posts: 24
Location: Wales, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2024 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
Interesting topic. I won't attempt to advise you because I'm not an expert. Maybe someone like Doug Elliott will chime in on this.

But, I will share my personal journey. I played for many years with my tongue behind my top teeth. Based on observing the many top professionals that "anchor" tongue, I took some advice from several of them and tried it. To be honest, it didn't go so well at first. It took a long time to develop the coordination.
Fast forward, I use both methods - primarily KTM but for some playing, I still tongue behind my upper teeth. It has become very ingrained.
At this point, its just like circular breathing - I don't even think about; it just happens. My tongue goes to the position that works best for what I'm playing without me consciously making the choice.


Yeah, my mother does the same as you, weirdly! And she's got the most rapid, percussive multiple tongue I've ever heard (she can play Clarke's 144 bpm exercise with ease). Everyone's got their own method, and articulation seems to be pretty unique for everyone based on anatomy and the mental side of things.
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