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Trying to identify my old Bach's era and model from a photo



 
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 11:30 am    Post subject: Trying to identify my old Bach's era and model from a photo Reply with quote

Hello all

Around 1992 I got my first trumpet, a used lacquered Bach with a fair amount of wear to the lacquer.

From the fuzzy Polaroid photo here, you see it doesn't have the thumb saddle on the 1st slide, and that it's a standard configuration horn… I see pictures of 1935, '66, '70 and other early Bachs with the thumb saddle. Possibly they weren't original on some of those earlier horns.

I figure my old Bach was probably at least 20 years old at the time, which would date it 1972 or perhaps quite a bit earlier.

Does anyone know which year Strads didn't have the straddle?

From what I've heard the Mt Vernon Bachs were .020 gauge bell stock along with some of the early Elkharts, before the standard became .025 in the early '70s or so. Are current lightweight Bach 37 models .020?

I'm almost certain my horn was a Strad, but from the pic could it have been a student model? I think I may have paid around $600 for it in 1992, but again, not sure. It just occurred to me it may not have even been a 37 bell, though it seems likely.

[/img]
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like a King 600 student trumpet, not a Bach
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharpened photo:

[/img]

Now I'm questioning myself it it was a Bach!

Edit: I don’t know why I thought it had double bracing on the tuning slide either. Sheesh!

I remember my friend’s Yamaha at the time seemed to project a little better, but of 3 trumpets I was still chosen to do the lead part in a Christmas concert.


Last edited by Rhondo on Tue May 14, 2024 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t think a thumb saddle has any bearing on the date of manufacture. It is my understanding that they can be configured by the buyer if they want something other than the factory default.

For instance both of my bachs Bbs have triggers. One is from 1972 the other 1996 or so.
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quikv6
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is not a Stradivarius, and doesn't appear to be a Bach at all.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be a Bundy? That's what I was playing back in the early 70's.
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a closer picture of it I’m going to look for.

Last edited by Rhondo on Tue May 14, 2024 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mograph
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a 1985 Bach Strad, and a 1980 King 601.


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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mograph wrote:
Here's a 1985 Bach Strad, and a 1980 King 601.



I wonder if all the King 601 horns had that thumb saddle on the 1st slide. If mine was indeed a King, then maybe it was the 600.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, Strads did not have a first valve saddle until 1971, give or take a year. After that, they all had first valve slide saddles (or optional trigger). That change also included a change to the length of the slide, as well as a design change to a reversed slide. The original length had always caused the 4th line D to be flat, so they shortened it a bit to bring that note up. That made other notes a little sharp, so the purpose of the saddle was to correct that sharpness on the notes that needed it. On my Bachs, the 1-2 valve combo notes tend to be sharp, and that’s where the saddle comes in handy.

(I just remembered that for a few years before the slide design change, an optional saddle was available. The saddle couldn’t just be soldered to the slide like it is today because the original slide design had fixed, immovable tubing where the reversed slide is today. The saddle was attached to a rod which, in turn, extended out to the end of the first valve tubing, where the actual slide was. The slide itself was kinda like the first valve slide in your picture. I had one of these on my 1970 Bach C. I sold that horn to Terry Everson in college. Big mistake, but I digress…)

That said, the adjustable finger ring on the third valve slide in your picture is a giveaway that this is not a Strad. Could be the King model mentioned above, or a student model Bach. I’m not sure.

John
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was a King, whatever version I had sounded pretty good. I wasn’t an advanced player, and coming back now I’m still not, but I could get a nice tone from that horn. It never had any mechanical issues either.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a King - probably the 600 model. Were the valve springs on the outside of the piston spring barrel? If so, it was .458 bore - if they were on the inside, then .462 bore - I'm pretty sure.

The identifier is the wide spacing of the 1st valve slide. Most, but not all Kings had that arrangement.

King knew how to make valves and slides - I thought the student horns played very well. Of course their pro horns were very nice too - if you like your trumpets on the crisp and bright side.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Of course their pro horns were very nice too - if you like your trumpets on the crisp and bright side.

Have you tried the mid-70's Golden Flair? It's a more intimate and expressive variety of King.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2024 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
It's a King - probably the 600 model. Were the valve springs on the outside of the piston spring barrel? If so, it was .458 bore - if they were on the inside, then .462 bore - I'm pretty sure.

The identifier is the wide spacing of the 1st valve slide. Most, but not all Kings had that arrangement.

King knew how to make valves and slides - I thought the student horns played very well. Of course their pro horns were very nice too - if you like your trumpets on the crisp and bright side.


Andy is on point. The open first valve slide wrap is the key, but the lack of a brace on the tuning slide also made this ID straight-forward. I had several students with these horns, and some of them played well. It is clearly not a TR-300 or a TR-200. The TR-300 had a clear resemblance to the Bundy 1530, and the TR-200 was far more "Strad"-like.

The better playing instruments of this make were solid players with great tone, but sometimes had some tuning issues. The wider first valve slide was usually the issue, and that design concern was something that simply could not be overcome. Both the Bachs (TR-300 and TR-200) were better in tune, and there were some TR-200s that my students played that were outstanding! If they had been for sale, I would have bought and kept those trumpets. If anything was a concern on the Bachs, the TR-300 leadpipe was a bit short and made the player have to pull out the main tuning slide an inch or more to play in tune.

All of this is my recollections and opinions from 32 years ago (or more). And, rapid, almost instantaneous lacquer wear on these Kings was a secondary issue that led to some of the parents of students I taught returning them under warranty with finish concerns.

All my best,

AL
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mograph
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2024 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhondo wrote:
I wonder if all the King 601 horns had that thumb saddle on the 1st slide. If mine was indeed a King, then maybe it was the 600.


Apparently, the difference between the 600 and 601 is the thumb saddle.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2024 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problems with the King 600 can usually be traced to the mouthpiece gap. OK - they are actually "gapless" but many will not allow a Bach mouthpiece to be inserted far enough giving a rather brash sound and intonation problems associated with too much gap. This is a problem with many Kings - they apparently never got the Selmer K-Modified memo and persisted in setting the gap to fit their proprietary mouthpiece shank. (Same problem with the cornets.)

The receiver is too thin to allow reaming so the only solution is to re-position the receiver.

I have had several pro level Kings with the wide 1st slide wrap - I actually thought it made A above the staff speak better. (The gold King leadpipe apparently has a taper similar to the Benge 3X so if you are a 25/37 Strad player, note placement might be a bit different and slots might feel wider. I'm more of a Benge guy so no problem. )
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1527601
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2024 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn’t have any of those issues with mine, but apparently there were different versions of the King 600, differing in quality.
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