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What's so special about shepherds crook cornets?


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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Thank you!

I see here a grand-grand-father of the leadpipe wrap of Getzen Eterna (and prior to that, King Master) cornets.

The Allen rotary valves have oval / compressed circular cross-section, possibly leading to increased stuffiness of the horn. More details on p.116 in this document:
https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2003/HBSJ_2003_JL01_004_UtleyKlaus_Part2.pdf


I didn’t see any critique of Allen valves in your link other than the comment that their small diameter allows them to have faster action, which is true. I played this cornet in a Civil War reenactment brass band for around 25 years and noticed no significant stuffiness. On the contrary, it’s one of the better playing cornets from that era that I’ve played, on par with contemporary Boston instruments. Interesting reading, though…thanks!
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
etc-etc wrote:
Thank you!

I see here a grand-grand-father of the leadpipe wrap of Getzen Eterna (and prior to that, King Master) cornets.

The Allen rotary valves have oval / compressed circular cross-section, possibly leading to increased stuffiness of the horn. More details on p.116 in this document:
https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2003/HBSJ_2003_JL01_004_UtleyKlaus_Part2.pdf


I didn’t see any critique of Allen valves in your link other than the comment that their small diameter allows them to have faster action, which is true. I played this cornet in a Civil War reenactment brass band for around 25 years and noticed no significant stuffiness. On the contrary, it’s one of the better playing cornets from that era that I’ve played, on par with contemporary Boston instruments. Interesting reading, though…thanks!


Dale,

Indeed the reference above does not say anything about stuffiness of Allen valves - that it is a possibility is entirely my conjecture.

I looked up Allen valves in context of other instruments and found this information from TubeNet, posted in 2004:

Quote:
Thu May 13, 2004 9:39 pm

Chuck,
In the late 1800's horns were made with Allen valves, which were a rotary version of ovalized valves. I have seen these on Hall & Quinby, and Allen & Hall over the shoulder tubas, as well as a Lehnert centennial model tuba.
On the tubas I have played, they were far more ovalized than on the piston ovalized valve structures. While visually this gives the impression that they would induce resistance and stuffiness to the horns, all three such horns I have played have been exceptionally nice blowing horns.
It gives a very small diameter valve, perhaps a 5/8" diameter rotor for a fairly small bore over the shoulder E-flat tuba.
I'm pretty certain these are the subject of an early U.S. patent. When I locate it, I'll post a scan.


This confirms your observation that rotary Allen valves, using a "depressed circle" cross-section, can be superior in performance to other models.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
the shepherd crook is not contributing much to the sound. Unless, of course, you listen with your eyes

Sometimes that makes all the difference though. The senses and the mind are strongly connected. There have been studies that indicate people even taste with their eyes. So even if it's purely mental it still contributes to the sound.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the additional info - nice research! The Allen valves on the Lehnert cornet are pretty tiny. I also had occasion to play a Henry Lehnert Eb cornet with the same valves, and it was a very good instrument, too.


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deleted_user_cd24e5f
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have convinced myself that I need a shepherd crook cornet. I want that final degree of mellow and dark and brown from my cornet. I'm actively seeking an irresistible deal on any color Jupiter 520 cornet in really great shape. The virtually identical 700 model has replaced the 520. Some day I will have money to own both and I will investigate if there is more than one molecule of difference. I keep reading that the Yamaha shepherds crook cornet models cannot hold a candle to the Jupiter 520 sound.
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deleted_user_cd24e5f
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet".

(ever hear this before ?)


I've read that Jupiter S C cornets sound better than the equivalent Yamaha S C cornets. And appears to me there are five or more times the volume of used Yamaha S C cornets on the market. The Jupiter S C cornets appear much less frequently than the Yamaha S C cornets, which is interesting.
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2024 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
I have convinced myself that I need a shepherd crook cornet. I want that final degree of mellow and dark and brown from my cornet. I'm actively seeking an irresistible deal on any color Jupiter 520 cornet in really great shape. The virtually identical 700 model has replaced the 520. Some day I will have money to own both and I will investigate if there is more than one molecule of difference. I keep reading that the Yamaha shepherds crook cornet models cannot hold a candle to the Jupiter 520 sound.

Remember, it's not just the crook. It's the overall package, including the bell profile matched to the bore. Yes, many of the shepard's crook bell cornets, including my Globe Stamp 921, have that wider throat and larger bore, and make the tone desired. But also takes a V cup mouthpiece, of which there are now many: Wick, Alliance, Curry (TC & BBC), Sparx, etc. I also, depending on the shading, use depending on the occasion, a Curry 3BBC, Curry 3TC, and a Wick 4B. I do need to get a Wick 4 one of these days. So look at the entire package, not just the crook.
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Last edited by iiipopes on Mon May 20, 2024 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2024 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What's so special about shepherd's crook cornets?"

For one thing, they fit into the Protec Cornet PRO PAC case that I just bought, unlike the slightly - but fatally - longer King Silvertone American cornet I bought it for [shakes fist towards the heavens].
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2024 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
"What's so special about shepherd's crook cornets?"

For one thing, they fit into the Protec Cornet PRO PAC case that I just bought, unlike the slightly - but fatally - longer King Silvertone American cornet I bought it for [shakes fist towards the heavens].

Ugh, that's unfortunate. Hope you can still return the case. Is it the length or the height?

Fwiw, some long cornets do fit in the Protec Pro Pac. My Olds Super cornet for example does fit in it, which I thought that was one of the longer ones...
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2024 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
"What's so special about shepherd's crook cornets?"

For one thing, they fit into the Protec Cornet PRO PAC case that I just bought, unlike the slightly - but fatally - longer King Silvertone American cornet I bought it for [shakes fist towards the heavens].

Ugh, that's unfortunate. Hope you can still return the case. Is it the length or the height?

Fwiw, some long cornets do fit in the Protec Pro Pac. My Olds Super cornet for example does fit in it, which I thought that was one of the longer ones...


It's the length. My Connstellation 38A fits nicely, but I bought it for this King Silvertone, whose case a) smells like death incarnate and b) has leather that bleeds on every surface it touches, and the Silvertone just doesn't quite fit. The pity is there really aren't very many cornet cases on the market. Perhaps the Conn will live in the new case and the Silvertone will live in the multi-horn case the Conn was in.

I'm a bit used to it now, as the Kanstul 991 I've had for some years now is both quite long, has a wide wrap, and a 5 1/4 inch bell. It fits in nothing save for the case it came in.
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1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
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2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried the Protec "PRO PAC Trumpet Case with Mute Section"? Same as the cornet ProPac, the horn is in playing position when placed in the case, but the case is markedly longer.

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deleted_user_cd24e5f
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iiipopes wrote:
Remember, it's not just the crook. It's the overall package, including the bell profile matched to the bore. Yes, many of the shepard's crook bell cornets, including my Globe Stamp 921, have that wider throat and larger bore, and make the tone desired. But also takes a V cup mouthpiece, of which there are now many: Wick, Alliance, Curry (TC & BBC), Sparx, etc. I also, depending on the shading, use depending on the occasion, a Curry 3BBC, Curry 3TC, and a Wick 4B. I do need to get a Wick 4 one of these days. So look at the entire package, not just the crook.


Thank you for this one stop consultory. Can we apply tha same maker > model alignment to a trumpet?
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... the big jump in diameter from the exit from the third valve to the tail of the bell. In some cases, bridged by a tube.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Have you tried the Protec "PRO PAC Trumpet Case with Mute Section"? Same as the cornet ProPac, the horn is in playing position when placed in the case, but the case is markedly longer.



That's a very interesting idea; I may have to do a return/exchange!
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1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also needed a case for my 921. Another option to consider if the cornet in question has a "standard" Besson/B&H style wrap is the JP, John Packer. It fits my Globe Stamp 921 perfectly. Two models, standard and large: I purchased the standard.
https://jpmusicalinstruments.com/products/john-packer-jp8071-cornet-case
https://jpmusicalinstruments.com/products/john-packer-jp8271-cornet-case
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