I am curious to know why you have resurrected (Today Easter Sunday in Orthodox Calendar..) a thread 11 years old only to refute it? It feels like the Dog that didn't bark in the Night.
Cheers Steve
PS Feel free to use the word "Elementary" in your reply. _________________ My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3860 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 5:15 am Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
Are "upstream" and "downstream" embouchures used in Stevens' pedagogy?
-----------------------------------------
Stevens writes about 'aiming the air up', but I don't think he gets into determining the actual direction of air flow.
He also doesn't directly associate the direction of the 'aiming' with the distribution of upper / lower lip rim position (as is sometimes done regarding Reinhardt terminology).
My feeling is that Stevens has an emphasis on controlled lower lip rim pressure and jaw position - and that is used to accomplish 'aiming the air up'. _________________ Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 769 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 6:29 am Post subject:
JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Are "upstream" and "downstream" embouchures used in Stevens' pedagogy?
-----------------------------------------
Stevens writes about 'aiming the air up', but I don't think he gets into determining the actual direction of air flow.
He also doesn't directly associate the direction of the 'aiming' with the distribution of upper / lower lip rim position (as is sometimes done regarding Reinhardt terminology).
My feeling is that Stevens has an emphasis on controlled lower lip rim pressure and jaw position - and that is used to accomplish 'aiming th
e air up'.
Where do you direct your air when playing F and G above high C. If you can demonstrate this we might see and understand how it's done and hear how it's supposed to sound. It would clear up a lot of questions.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3860 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat May 25, 2024 7:57 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
Wow still no response.
-------------
It appears that no one who can actually play the notes you asked about using 'Costello / Stevens' technique is interested in replying. If I could play them (I can't), I might be able demonstrate.
For me, playing up to high C includes adding more lower lip rim pressure (which for me relieves some upper lip rim pressure and makes lip vibration easier, and also getting the feeling of lip / teeth alignment that would direct the air stream up towards the tip of my nose. My lower lip increased rim pressure does not involve much movement of my jaw, and I don't purposely tilt the horn. _________________ Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 769 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 4:37 am Post subject:
JayKosta wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
Wow still no response.
-------------
It appears that no one who can actually play the notes you asked about using 'Costello / Stevens' technique is interested in replying. If I could play them (I can't), I might be able demonstrate.
For me, playing up to high C includes adding more lower lip rim pressure (which for me relieves some upper lip rim pressure and makes lip vibration easier, and also getting the feeling of lip / teeth alignment that would direct the air stream up towards the tip of my nose. My lower lip increased rim pressure does not involve much movement of my jaw, and I don't purposely tilt the horn.
So your saying you don't have an upper register. Topping out at a high C-D is not that high. I know players who studied with Roy Stevens who can play double C and above. So I guess you never studied with Roy. I didn't ask if anyone could demonstrate Roy's method, , I was asking if you can demonstrate your method , if you can't play an F or G above high C you didn't study with Roy, but you are the embouchure expert. You tell everyone how to change their embouchure. One poster said he had a solid E above double C but had trouble getting the D below to slot. Your advise, , change the position of the mouthpiece , a high school player was getting headaches, obviously a breathing problem, your fix, change the position the mouthpiece, no mention about breathing. What I question is your ability to do what you tell everyone else to do.
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 769 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 7:30 am Post subject:
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
but you are the embouchure expert. You tell everyone how to change their embouchure.
This is simply not true. Jay attempts to describe the embouchure territory in the most general way possible.
Al, rather than taking repeated personal shots at him, why don't you instead try pointing out where you think his - specific- ideas are wrong?
Jeff
I thought I did. A breathing problem is not an embouchure problem. He was willing to let this kid continue breathing incorrectly by letting him think he had a embouchure problem, this is wrong. Look he responds to every query about range and endurance, if I were to point out everyone ,I'd be here all day. He read a book about embouchure and hasn't figured out how it works. If he did he would be able show us, not guess . It's not personal, I just think he's doing more harm than good. I read a cook book, it doesn't make me a master chef.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9911 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 10:41 am Post subject:
There are those who "have gone before".
There are those who have experience teaching with success.
There are those who amalgamize what they have read. _________________ Paxman French Horn
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3860 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun May 26, 2024 11:53 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
I thought I did. ...
-----------------------------------
Al, when you see something that is really from me that you disagree with, please post your thoughts. And reference the specific post that is troublesome. _________________ Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:03 pm Post subject: quackery
Let me recapitulate on my comments about medical quackery. I've looked around at different photo's of different trumpet players with different dental classes and/or treatments and can see certain patterns emerge. Even classical you see particular patterns emerge.
The correct term I'd give to such patterns is "aesthetic luthering", where medical interventions through adaptations to the teeth and/or muscles change playing patterns.
The huge question for me is, the classical trumpet instructor says dental class I with a little bit of filing suffices for professional trumpet on all levels; but a worrying trend has emerged where a medical group of quacks has involved themselves with the trumpet.
some things we do NOT know:
* the quacks or companies involved have got no name
* medical adaptations are done without asking patient
* there is clear disruption of the normal aesthetic path
* trumpet players suffer through guilt or financial ruin
So would it be good to find out the names of the companies involved on such quackery and patient abuse. One company is 100% certain called Align Technology, but where are the others.
In this video at 1:06 he demonstrates the frown formation however, you can clearly see he does not play the statics that way. Bottom lip is not curled in and chin is not bunched up. Both during the statics and when playing melodically 2:13 the red part of his lips are more forward including at the end when demonstrating the high notes.
Is the frown embouchure merely an isometric exercise and the playing embouchure is different in this method? _________________ Bach Artisan AB190 Bb
46 & 59 #2 Martin Committees
1970-ish Couesnon Monopole Flugel
6310Z Flugel
36B Connstellation Trumpet
1970 6B Conn Tpt
1956 6B Conn Tpt
28A Connstellation Cornet
King Super 20 Cornet
Reeves 42 Mouthpieces
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3860 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:48 am Post subject:
Aj wrote:
I too am interested in exploring the pros and cons of this method ...
---------------------------------------
For me, the important and useful information that I got from reading about the C/S method was 'active controlled rim pressure on the lower lip' and use of the jaw to achieve it.
My view is that lower lip rim pressure is needed to enable the upper lip to be flexible enough to vibrate in the upper range. Players who rely only on upper lip rim pressure can prevent lip vibration & air flow - this often seems to occur at the G or A above the staff. _________________ Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
Hello. It's been awhile since I've posted here. Anyway, I just thought I would share some articles that I happened across by Bob Gillis and they are all related to the Roy Stevens method, perhaps they might be of some help. Mostly they are about the set up which Bob calls the landing.
Thanks!
Kenny
P.S. You might read the first couple and say this says nothing of Roy Stevens. I quote from the third one, "I had a breakthrough when exposed to the ideas of Roy Stevens. Most of the concepts in Part One and Part Two of this series come from his teachings." Just wanted to show the relevance. _________________ Kenny
Stomvi Big Bell S3
Always remember that you are unique just like everyone else!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3860 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:36 pm Post subject:
KennyC123 wrote:
... Anyway, I just thought I would share some articles that I happened across by Bob Gillis and they are all related to the Roy Stevens method, perhaps they might be of some help. Mostly they are about the set up which Bob calls the landing. ...
--------------------------------
Thanks for those links Kenny!
One question I have about his suggestions is about the percentage of rim pressure that 'should be' on the lower lip.
My view (and I mostly agree with Gillis) is that the amount of pressure needs to be discovered on an individual basis, and the distribution of pressure might change depending on the range of the notes being played. I also believe that the player needs to be aware of how they are using rim pressure - and perhaps more importantly, when they are NOT using it in the way that is most functional for them. For me, the goal of rim pressure distribution and weight is to provide the lip/embouchure functioning that work best, not to be striving for some particular 'number' for the amount of pressure or how it is distributed. _________________ Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
...One question I have about his suggestions is about the percentage of rim pressure that 'should be' on the lower lip.
My view (and I mostly agree with Gillis) is that the amount of pressure needs to be discovered on an individual basis, and the distribution of pressure might change depending on the range of the notes being played. I also believe that the player needs to be aware of how they are using rim pressure - and perhaps more importantly, when they are NOT using it in the way that is most functional for them. For me, the goal of rim pressure distribution and weight is to provide the lip/embouchure functioning that work best, not to be striving for some particular 'number' for the amount of pressure or how it is distributed.
I concur/agree with you. While not about pressure, for me personally, I've always been a 50/50 on placement of the mouthpiece. For Stevens to work for me I have to use the 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom mouthpiece placement and the 40 percent top weight and 60 percent bottom weight also seems about right. I can play the Stevens way with 50/50 placement, yielding a beautiful full sound, but no high range so to speak. Moving the placement to the 1/3 top 2/3 bottom opens up the high register. For me, this placement seems to create a fulcrum that makes the upper register easy. Just my 2 cents worth. _________________ Kenny
Stomvi Big Bell S3
Always remember that you are unique just like everyone else!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2024 7:41 am Post subject: Re: not useful
peanuts56 wrote:
herbievantetering wrote:
Stevens Costello is not a useful system, it involves too much the adaptations of teeth etc. in order to get the 'flat' embouchure effect; it is more of a 'medical quakery' and 'marketing gimmick' than a useful method.
When trumpet methods get themselves involved in medical aspects and neuromuscular aspects, something must be wrong. The truth must be told about these approaches which only a handful of players can apply after major medical adaptations.
We're not talking about a method that works with a regular person with normal healthcare and a healthy class one.
The 'medical quackery' involved in making the diagram of the 'embouchure muscles' is the worse; it portrays the embouchure neuromuscular system as a 'perfectly centered' system which is also completely 'flat' and 'perfectly symmetric' so how are players supposed to learn on that?
You must have done some 'medical quackery' to reach the 'costello point' and it would be best to steer clear of such 'medical quackery' in trumpet method books.
Also, the tongueing method in Stevens Costello is completely wrong, the lip roll would (at most) get you a useless screamer and the medical diagram is full of viral advertisements, ..., another proof that the method involves 'medical quackery' beyond a healthy set of teeth (and at most some 'zahn schleifen') to improve the flow.
But hey, ..., the method is from NY and Hollywood, so I'd say buy the CD from these quacks now, ..., before it's too late.
I've heard Roy Stevens play, and he could play! He had a nice sound in all registers and played with a lot of well known artists. He must have been doing something right.
As far as it being useless, I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole. I don't think it works for everyone. He had several well known players as students. Don Ellis studied with Roy for a long time. Not known as a high note guy but Don had excellent high chops. There's a video of his band at Montreaux playing a piece called Open Wide. He nails a Double B at the end of the intro and it's pretty impressive. He also didn't appear to be working too hard to hit the Double B.
I heard Lloyd Michaels live with Buddy Rich and he could peel paint in the upper register. Lloyd studied with Roy. Paul Bogosian studied with Roy and was Don Ellis's lead player.
I've never heard Roy Roman play, except on video. I wasn't too impressed. Roy doesn't play trumpet any more and has started playing clarinet.
I think you need certain physical characteristics for his system to work. If it works for you then run with it. If not, don't criticize. Ditto for Callett. I studied with Jerry and his power was through the roof. I used what worked for me and added in some of Jeff Smiley's stuff.
Peanuts, you are spot on. I studied personally with Roy Stevens, Dr. Reinhardt, and Jerry Callet, and also studied Smiley's Balanced Embouchure. (yes, I'm up there) They each had something helpful, but not everything worked for me, and not everyone would benefit from any of them. Most teachers teach what works for them or how they think it works. Take what you can and move on. _________________ Harrelson Dreams Trumpet
Harrelson SpectraTone Yellow
Patrick 3C
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2
Page 2 of 2
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
