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Copper Bell Flugelhorns?



 
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Dvweaver
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:15 am    Post subject: Copper Bell Flugelhorns? Reply with quote

Hey all. I've been in the market for a new flugelhorn. I recently had the pleasure of trying an Adam's F5. After trying it against a bunch of other models, the the dark sound of the Adams was (in my opinion) far superior. In looking at the specs, I realized the Adams had a copper bell, which I believe is the biggest contributor to the sound that I loved.

If I'm liking the dark sound of the Adams (presumably from the copper), would any of you have any suggestions on other horns I should compare it to? I'm reading the Kanstul 1525 is a fierce competitor, but there are only so many of those available, so I would be most open to accessible brands/models.

Thanks a ton!
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Last edited by Dvweaver on Mon Apr 08, 2024 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scatanas
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Kanstul 1525 and it’s just on another level. I’ve played the Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, 2 different Adams (can’t remember which models, sorry) and I owned the Courtois 154.

Nothing comes close to the 1525.

From what I hear, the Inderbiden Wood is like a slightly better 1525 but it’s $6,000. Never played one though.

So I’d say unless you’re in a big rush it’s worth the wait for one to pop up. I waited and looked online for over a year, but it was well worth the wait.
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Richard A
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:59 pm    Post subject: Schilke Flugelhorns Reply with quote

I have a Schilke 1040 FL and am very happy. The 1041FLC has a copper bell.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Kanstul 1525 and also an Adams A2 with a red brass bell and nickel silver flair. I had the Kanstul before I got the Adams. They produce much different sounds.

The Kanstul produces a fluffier, darker, dispersed, classic flugelhorn sound. It's a wonderful sound. The Adams produces a brighter, more focused, more projecting sound (which is the reason I got the Adams, I wanted a flugelhorn with that sound so I had a versatile pair of flugelhorns).

For a small group I think the Kanstul is the superior flugelhorn. In a larger ensemble where you could use more projection the Adams would match that situation better than the Kanstul.

I also have a Schlagerl Killer Queen flugelhorn and it is awesome. I'm assuming it has a yellow brass bell. It's maybe not quite as dark as the Kanstul but it gets a great flugelhorn sound. Of course the main point of the Schlagerl is the valves. The quickness of the rotary valves is fabulous. No piston flugelhorn can match the dexterity of the Schlagerl and its rotary valves. It's a big difference.
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claf
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check also the Van Laars, more particularly the Oiram and Fresu.
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Stan Harrison
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer Copper Bells. But the size and Taper of the bell makes a difference. I've had a Kanstul 1525 copper, a Calicchio copper, a Red brass Brasspire, A copper Harrelson Summit Flugel, and now an A.R Resonance with 170MM copper bell. Special order. The Calicchio copper was Huge. A Jo-Ral Flugel mute wouldn't fit in it because the bell was too big, but it fit in the Kanstul, Both are 6.5 inches but the Callichio was much wider leading up to the final diameter. My A.R, is 6.7 inch but that mute fits. Then there is the thickness of the Copper. The Harrelson Copper was really thick and the 1525 thinner. I don't like Flugelhorns that sound like Cornets. To me Copper gets Colors that I don't get from Brass.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:27 am    Post subject: Copper vs Brass Reply with quote

I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to the confusion, some horns are not solid copper but copper plated brass. The ACB Coppernicus comes to mind.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second best flugel I ever had was an Old CT model with a copper bell. After that, the Couesnon. I liked the 1525, but play testing (e\yes closed) didn't hear enough difference between the copper and brass bell to sway me much. Then again, I almost play test for sound with my eyes closed, and like to take someone with me when i check out a new horn, so they can hear the difference in front of the bell. Horns don't always sound the same in front as they do in back, after all.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


I had a chance to play a copper bell 1025 at Fergusson Music, once. I already had purchased a silver plated 1025. You are right, Tony, the copper does not sound darker, but each time I have compared them side by side with yellow brass, the copper has played a little more sweetly and responded that little bit more delicately. My raw finished WT flugelhorn is the most responsive instrument I have ever owned. Not by a lot, but it is noticeable, in my opinion.
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deleted_user_cd24e5f
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2024 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


+ 1

The look is beautiful. The rationalizing is human.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2024 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen's 4895 Custom Reserve flugel has a copper bell and it's gorgeous.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2024 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someplace on his Facebook account, Brent Peters (of Puje trumpets) says that his copper bells are the brightest bells he uses/used. Probably has to do with the profile as well, not only the material. I do however agree that Cu bells look awesome.
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Johnny-Highnote
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2024 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Copper vs Brass Reply with quote

DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
Tony Scodwell wrote:
I believe many players assume a copper bell flugelhorn gets a darker sound. I have found the exact opposite results when blind testing my brass and copper flugels here in my Las Vegas shop with some top players. All preferred the brass model when they didn't know which they were playing. I also believe it is an "eye candy" influence and some years ago I was displaying my instruments at the International Trumpet conference in Washington, DC. I was with my distributor Washington Music Center and they had brought along some other horns to display one of which was a Kanstul "Chicago" flugelhorn with a copper bell (not the 1525). I had a silver plated flugel that a player with the Navy band had ordered and it was placed next to the Kanstul. During the entire convention not one person picked my horn up and were drawn to the copper Kanstul like flys to jam. After that I made the decision to start making a copper bell version along with my brass flugels.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


+ 1

The look is beautiful. The rationalizing is human.


+2
I had the feeling that Copper flugels play very soft over microphone,while played "relaxed"-but tend to get nasty in live situations (without PA)
My Courtois 154 was a "best of both worlds" thing,but believe it or not
The best sounding flugal for live playing is a Qouesnon silver plated brass...
It has something without getting "sharp"

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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2024 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play testing flugelhorns is a challenge. Most shops only stock one or two (if at all), and even the biggest shops may only have a few. While the testing environment is not ideal, you might want to consider a trip to an ITG conference, the Midwest Clinic, the NAMM Show...where you are likely to find a variety of flugelhorns to try.

Quote:
If I'm liking the dark sound of the Adams (presumably from the copper), would any of you have any suggestions on other horns I should compare it to?


It is tricky to point to one design element of an instrument and conclude that element is why you like the instrument. One flugelhorn that comes to mind is the Getzen 4895CR. It has a lush, warm sound which seems to be what you are drawn to. It also happens to have a copper bell and a "straight flow" like (I believe) the F5, but a slightly larger bell and bore than the F5.

Good luck!
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