• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Whats is the purpose of a Sheperds Crook?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Cornet/Flügelhorn
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9390
Location: Heart of Dixie

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resurrection of a zombie post, but I'll add this in retrospect from today. I have a non-shepherd's crook 1960s Conn cornet that approaches the sound of a Besson Prestige when I use a Wick 4 in it. Just some anecdotal evidence that a cornet doesn't need a shepherd's crook bell to have "the sound". Speaking of "the sound", a significant part of it has to do with the player's style and technique, too. The old Conn 9A Victor is a wonderful instrument with a big sound, great intonation, and a fairly easy upper register.


_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9221
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a musicological note, I think the mythology of early jazz being the domain of bawdy houses and tawdry beginnings does a real stereotyped disservice to early jazz musicians and shouldn't be overstated.

Early Jazz was certainly played in red-light districts, but music, including early Jazz was played all over the Lake Ponchartrain area and as wide as San Antonio, Los Angeles, Chicago and New Yprk City.

Early jazz was found in neighborhoods all over and around New Orleans - it was a normal part of community life.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker

Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Marcinkiewicz's website it says of the Rembrandt:
Quote:
The SC Rembrandt trumpet is characterized by its patented shepherds crook bell bend. Inspired by the cornets of old, the unique bend of the bell allows the horn to play open and freely by allowing the air to travel through the instrument with less resistance then traditionally designed bells with tighter bell bends.

_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Kanstul M-B4D-P mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_cd24e5f
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Sheperds crook & deep, v-cup mouthpiece = soft, traditional cornet sound.

Long cornet & c-cup mouthpiece = louder, trumpet-like sound.

How about using a long cornet with a deep, v-cup mouthpiece?


this
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DAVIDTHEWRITER"]
Quote:


Sheperds crook & deep, v-cup mouthpiece = soft, traditional cornet sound.

Long cornet & c-cup mouthpiece = louder, trumpet-like sound.

How about using a long cornet with a deep, v-cup mouthpiece?


I do this.
Conn 28A Constellation (long cornet), with a VERY DEEP "V"-cup mpc.
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_cd24e5f
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Conn 28A Constellation (long cornet), with a VERY DEEP "V"-cup mpc.


Man,

I'm going to try this on my decent sounding and fun to play 1965 CONN Constellation. It's odd how nicely it fits my hand and so it is never for sale (liquidated five other vintage cornets purchased in the same sweep; this one was just better).

Man,

Kindly tell us the brand and model that is your winning and very deep, v-cup mouthpiece for cornet.

I, too, am in constant sorrow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9221
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both the Curry VC and DC are very good mouthpieces for this.
https://www.currympc.com/Cornet-Mouthpieces.html

(You do realise, though, that deep mouthpieces can be a challenge to play?)
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker

Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DAVIDTHEWRITER"]
Quote:

Conn 28A Constellation (long cornet), with a VERY DEEP "V"-cup mpc.

"Kindly tell us the brand and model that is your winning and very deep, v-cup mouthpiece for cornet".


re: the mouthpiece
It's a one-of-a-kind ... formerly owned and used by none other than Miles Davis. Given to me by my neighbor, Teo Macero ... who happened to be Miles' producer. Am informed (by Teo) Miles used the mouthpiece on his Martin Flugelhorn, while recording the album, "Sketches of Spain".
Teo saw me playing my Martin Flugelhorn, and said, "I have something for you". Voila!
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW ~

Just to add to the conversation, regarding shepherd's crook horns ... I have a vintage Couesnon SHEPHERD'S CROOK TRUMPET.

I also have a vintage ("Handcraft era") MARTIN SHEPHERD'S CROOK FLUGELHORN. Is a DOUBLE-shepherd's crook (front & rear).
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 774
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:53 am    Post subject: Leaving us hanging Reply with quote

So you mention owning both a vintage Shepherds crook trumpet and flugelhorn. But you leave us hanging about how well they play, comparsion with each other and a cornet. Mouthpieces , valve oil slide grease and do you play in public.
_________________
Jupiter 520 M lacquered Shepherds crook cornet ( )
Blessing XL lacquered Shepherds crook cornet (04/1985)
Denis Wick 4B classic mouthpiece
Bach Megatone 5B mouthpiece
Curry 5 BBC mouthpiece
Holton 6 c mouthpiece
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Leaving us hanging Reply with quote

jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote:
So you mention owning both a vintage Shepherds crook trumpet and flugelhorn. But you leave us hanging about how well they play, comparsion with each other and a cornet. Mouthpieces , valve oil slide grease and do you play in public.



You'll just have to keep "hanging".

I'm too busy to get into the details you mentioned. Maybe (?) another time.
Suffice to say, they are unique in their playing character.
And, YES, I do play in public ... but, sparingly on the above-mentioned horns.
As of late, I'm playing mostly drums and mandolin (oddly, actually), in a couple different bands.
I am a multi-instrumentalist, as you might gather.
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paulplaysalittle
New Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2024
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Man Of Constant Sorrow"]
DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
Quote:

Conn 28A Constellation (long cornet), with a VERY DEEP "V"-cup mpc.

"Kindly tell us the brand and model that is your winning and very deep, v-cup mouthpiece for cornet".


re: the mouthpiece
It's a one-of-a-kind ... formerly owned and used by none other than Miles Davis. Given to me by my neighbor, Teo Macero ... who happened to be Miles' producer. Am informed (by Teo) Miles used the mouthpiece on his Martin Flugelhorn, while recording the album, "Sketches of Spain".
Teo saw me playing my Martin Flugelhorn, and said, "I have something for you". Voila!


That is very cool..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nkolisnyk
Regular Member


Joined: 03 Dec 2012
Posts: 70
Location: Winnipeg, MB

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Man Of Constant Sorrow"]
DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
Quote:

Conn 28A Constellation (long cornet), with a VERY DEEP "V"-cup mpc.

"Kindly tell us the brand and model that is your winning and very deep, v-cup mouthpiece for cornet".


re: the mouthpiece
It's a one-of-a-kind ... formerly owned and used by none other than Miles Davis. Given to me by my neighbor, Teo Macero ... who happened to be Miles' producer. Am informed (by Teo) Miles used the mouthpiece on his Martin Flugelhorn, while recording the album, "Sketches of Spain".
Teo saw me playing my Martin Flugelhorn, and said, "I have something for you". Voila!


Holy smokes
_________________
Yamaha Xeno 8335G Cornet
Yamaha 8310Z
Noblet Flugelhorn

www.rupertslandbrass.ca
www.nafrodance.com
www.cnhussi.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_cd24e5f
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't known to his fans until much later, Teo Macero was critical in the outcome of Miles electrification era.

From IN A SILENT WAY to the time of Macero's retirement, Davis studio sessions were extremely free form. It was Macero listening to reems of jamming and solos on TAPE that the arrangement for album release would be made with his manual editing and splicing. In A Silent Way is surprisingly repetitive upon analysis. Davis left all the rearranging to Macero, an accomplished band arranger.

John McLaughlin told Herbie Hancock that the group sounded awful during Bitches Brew. Hancock remarked, the album will sound OK. That was the major extent that Macero was involved in the production release.

Ever wonder why the original FILMORE album was such a mess? It's a literal recording of that era live without editing. Macero was critical to musical outcomes in this era.

After Macero retired, Davis went more rock funk pop and editing was no longer necessary because the songs had more traditional structures.

SOURCE: book Miles Beyond (2001), the ultimate authority on Mile Davis music from 1967 to his quitting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rhatheway
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson and Tom Turner,

As the orignal post is from quite some time ago, I don't know if you're still active on TH or not, but thanks very much for the very clear explanations you both provided. You've made it very easy to understand the history and differences.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dershem
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1902
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom turner wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
I don't think a shepherd's crook does much to attect the sound of a cornet . . .


Hi Dale,

Hope you are well!

Here's a great revelation, and the comparison is as apples-to-apples as one can get!

Flip uses the same bell mandrel to produce the bells on his short cornet, long "American" cornet, AND his Bb Wild Thing trumpet.

I've played all three side by side and each sounds as it should . . . but all three horns sound quite different, both to the player and to listeners!

Sincerely,

Tom T.


Yup. I have played several variations on several horns, made by the same people out of the same materials, but with different shapes, and it makes a difference I find remarkable.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dershem
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1902
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, the actual function of a shepherd's crook is to round up sheep. But that has almost nothing to do with horn design.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
deleted_user_cd24e5f
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
Of course, the actual function of a shepherd's crook is to round up sheep. But that has almost nothing to do with horn design.


Only thing better than a hot thread is cold chicken.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
dershem wrote:
Of course, the actual function of a shepherd's crook is to round up sheep. But that has almost nothing to do with horn design.


Only thing better than a hot thread is cold chicken.


Better yet ... cold pizza !
_________________
Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dershem
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1902
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote:
DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
dershem wrote:
Of course, the actual function of a shepherd's crook is to round up sheep. But that has almost nothing to do with horn design.


Only thing better than a hot thread is cold chicken.


Better yet ... cold pizza !


Cold Pizza is not what you have for breakfast. Cold Pizza is what you have while deciding what to have for breakfast.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Cornet/Flügelhorn All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group