Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 139 Location: Seattle area
Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 9:03 pm Post subject: Hans Gansch cornet vs Carrol Brass 7772
What impressions do folks have of the Hans Gansch cornet by Schagerl? I was thinking of refurbing one of my vintage cornets, but realized that the same money would buy a new Hans Gansch cornet, or maybe the Carrol Brass 7772.
It's been suggested to me that the Carrol Brass 7772 is "better" than both the Gansch and my vintage horn (Olds Super cornet). The Carrol Brass has a similar "three shepherd's crooks" wrap to my Kanstul 1530, but with a larger bell. But both the Gansch and the 7772 are lower-priced than that Kanstul was, or most "pro" horns.
That cornet used in the video is most certainly not the Hans Gansch cornet model. Look at the leadpipe receiver, the trigger arm for the third slide, the missing thick brace on the main tuning slide, and the right hand pinky hook (instead of the pinky ring) - different!
I have heard some chatter that only the “Handcrafted Instruments” listed on Schagerl’s website are made in Austria. Everything else is made in another factory in Taiwan. If true, then I think that Hans was just endorsing a cornet that he put together for Schagerl, but may not necessarily use it. Notice how the video only featured his Signature rotary trumpet and nothing about the cornet, yet the video description mentioned that he played the Hans Gansch model? Weird!
Who knows, maybe the Hans Gansch model and the Carol Brass are actually from the same factory? _________________ Trumpets:
YTR-9335NYS Gen I
Bach 190S37 50th Anniversary
Bach R180ML37SP “London”
Bach 198
Bach 229 Philly
Conn Vintage One C
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 945 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2024 10:53 am Post subject:
I have around 30 various top line vintage cornets including a 47 Olds Super, with which I can identify with your quandary. Honestly, I sold my last dedicated “British style” cornet, an Olds A6 shepherds crook (very rare, Olds only made 400.). I have had a lot of other shepherds crook cornets over the years, including Bessons, Schilkes, Strads in my 60 years of collecting and playing. I currently have only 1 shepherds crook Bb cornets, a Getzen 800 Eterna, which can sound pretty smooth, and is easy to play. I also had a CarolBrass Eb Soprano cornet, which was a fantastically well made instrument with a beautiful tone, but I found it tiring to use in highly demanding 2 hour Brass band rehearsals entirely above the staff, so I went back to my Schilke soprano. I have no direct experience with CB Bb cornets, but do have several other CB instruments that are top quality and extremely well made.
As well, I have a large accumulation of mouthpieces that ought to be able to improve my sound, none of which I find comfortable for me long term. Mouthpiece selection is very critical to cornet tonality, perhaps more so than the horn, BTW.
If I could buy that sound, I would trade them all for it. The one thing I have learned after a full life of equipment safaris, is that regardless of equipment, eventually I sound like me!! Disappointing, but true.
And the more a horn or mouthpiece pushes me toward a completely different sound, the more exhausting it is for me to play! I am just not versatile enough to change my musical persona!
A lot of horns can facilitate the tonality you may have in your head, but it doesn’t always make it out the bell.
Admittedly, you may have different results. But I will say your Olds Super is not likely to get you there, regardless of who restores it. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 139 Location: Seattle area
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2024 12:05 pm Post subject:
@Bionx @puzzleheadedcow -- Thank you for your sharp eyes! A Schagerl - Carrol Brass partnership explains the price. I still wonder what Gansch really plays these days. The video I selected is from 2008.
@huntman10
Quote:
regardless of equipment, eventually I sound like me!!
Yup! And as you also point out, some instruments help us achieve the sound in our heads with less work. I've been attempting to play the Olds with my deeper mouthpieces. Perhaps that's pushing it to be something it's not. It's fun to play and has a really pretty sound with a 3C when I want to hang out with the trumpet players in my family. "A good sound is a good sound."
@huntman10
Quote:
Admittedly, you may have different results. But I will say your Olds Super is not likely to get you there, regardless of who restores it.
Thank you. I agree, and I've decided that my Super doesn't need a full restoration. If I'm aiming at that "Hans Gansch" type of sound in my head, do you think either the "Hans Gansch" cornet or the Carrol Brass 7772 would be good choices?
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 945 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2024 9:32 pm Post subject:
djfinton wrote:
If I'm aiming at that "Hans Gansch" type of sound in my head, do you think either the "Hans Gansch" cornet or the Carrol Brass 7772 would be good choices?
Whew, without playing either horn, just looking at the online specs. They appear completely different. The CB has that cool shepherds crook EVERYTHING, and the highlights detailed on their website mentions a large (0.470”) bore, all yellow brass 5 1/4” standard” bell, and inner and outer yellow brass leadpipe.
The Shagerl site, if I am looking at the correct model, has gold brass bell and leadpipe, and a “large” 125 mm (4.92”) bell. The bore is listed as 11.68 mm (0.459”) on the Thomson site. The CarolBrass Large bell description means a Bach 72 style bell, which has a larger throat than the Standard (Bach 37 style), regardless of the total bell diameter, which should be darker.
Some people seem to believe that a large valve bore means a darker sound. I have played and owned a lot of cornets. The 2 loudest were both 0.470” bore; a LeBlanc LB cornet and a Benge standard wrap cornet. These were just about the opposite of the sound you seek. Also, my experience with the CarolBrass horns I have played is their gold brass bell is a bit darker, somewhat less focused.
But the most useful thing I found was tha Austin Custom Brass has the Gansch model on Reverb. I think those guys could tell you just what you need to know. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 139 Location: Seattle area
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2025 9:22 pm Post subject:
huntman10 wrote:
But the most useful thing I found was tha Austin Custom Brass has the Gansch model on Reverb. I think those guys could tell you just what you need to know.
Yes. I have traded email with Trent Austin -- great guy, with a huge amount of experience. Trent thinks the Carol Brass 7772 is my best bet. He sells that one, and the Gansch, and also other interesting things (Adams, Besson Prestige -- beyond my budget).
I just need to touch base again with my old Kanstul 1530 when I'm home from my travels. I wasn't a big fan of it lately, but my playing and mouthpiece choice have both changed.
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 139 Location: Seattle area
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 12:47 pm Post subject:
I hear the Carol Brass calling. If I was playing more seriously right now, I might be looking at other options, like the Adams CN1 and Besson Prestige. (By the way, I found a newer video with Hans Gansch, and he appeared to be playing a Besson Prestige).
My Olds Super seems to like my Bach 3C and a Curry 3BC-27 throat. It doesn't seem to like my deeper mouthpieces. I worked through my mouthpieces with my brother, and also tried them on the fleet of 6 cornets he brought up over Christmas. With my Olds, articulations lacked clarity of sound using the deeper mouthpieces, and the sound was "dark" but I think it lacked definition, and life. But my Bach 184 shepherd's crook cornet seems to like my Curry 3TC and Bach 5A mouthpieces. So did my brother's 1913 York Al-True cornet.
Of those three horns, the York was my favorite, for both playability and sound! The Olds with a smaller mouthpiece had a great sound. It just wasn't what I had in mind as a "cornet sound", like the York has. Perhaps this is due to the design of the instrument. Perhaps the leaky valves have something to do with it; I'm about to get that fixed.
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