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Anthony Miller
Regular Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 82
Location: Ryedale, North Yorkshire, UK
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 Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:28 am Post subject: |
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Scott Belck has a good video on resting and I've adopted this approach in my own playing and it works well. You might need to watch the video through to get to the point.
https://youtu.be/A_TnL8zaeEk?si=Ok2kg6CEHo1Y-c_J&t=608 |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2025 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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That is a great video, thanks, i got lost in all the videos there are on trumpets on youtube after that hah
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Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | .. but when your lips go numb and swell and notes stop coming out what do you do ...
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That happens to everyone eventually, the only thing you can do is to rest. |
Really? My facial muscles get tired. I don't think the above is true. I've never felt the above and have never heard of another player say those things. I have bitten my lip and had that area swell making playing difficult, but that is clear trauma. If the above is happening, something is very wrong. |
That may be true, but Loui Armstrong had bleeding split lips after playing sometimes. Me too
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Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2729
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Blunt advice for the OP - the responses are mostly dancing around your issue. That is, you are not practicing well, but actually wrecking your playing. From your descriptions (earth shattering blast, etc) you are completely at the wrong end of the stick as far as practice and developing your playing at the moment.
Your saving grace is the desire to improve, so focus on THIS.
Step 1. Get a good teacher. No ifs or buts. It is CLEAR you need direction, so be wise and get it.
Step 2. Follow the direction they give you.
Step 3. Repeat step 2.
Got it? What you described is akin to a marathon runner trying to run 2 marathons in a row and wondering why they can’t get Olympic gold on the next day. You are pushing way too hard. To fix this some new ideas are needed. See step 1.
Come back after 6 months of this and let us know how things have gone!
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Billy B
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6195
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | Blunt advice for the OP - the responses are mostly dancing around your issue. That is, you are not practicing well, but actually wrecking your playing. From your descriptions (earth shattering blast, etc) you are completely at the wrong end of the stick as far as practice and developing your playing at the moment.
Your saving grace is the desire to improve, so focus on THIS.
Step 1. Get a good teacher. No ifs or buts. It is CLEAR you need direction, so be wise and get it.
Step 2. Follow the direction they give you.
Step 3. Repeat step 2.
Got it? What you described is akin to a marathon runner trying to run 2 marathons in a row and wondering why they can’t get Olympic gold on the next day. You are pushing way too hard. To fix this some new ideas are needed. See step 1.
Come back after 6 months of this and let us know how things have gone! |
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Bill Bergren |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | Blunt advice for the OP - the responses are mostly dancing around your issue. That is, you are not practicing well, but actually wrecking your playing. From your descriptions (earth shattering blast, etc) you are completely at the wrong end of the stick as far as practice and developing your playing at the moment.
Your saving grace is the desire to improve, so focus on THIS.
Step 1. Get a good teacher. No ifs or buts. It is CLEAR you need direction, so be wise and get it.
Step 2. Follow the direction they give you.
Step 3. Repeat step 2.
Got it? What you described is akin to a marathon runner trying to run 2 marathons in a row and wondering why they can’t get Olympic gold on the next day. You are pushing way too hard. To fix this some new ideas are needed. See step 1.
Come back after 6 months of this and let us know how things have gone! |
lol thank you!
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Shaft wrote: | Sounds like “run of the mill” too much pressure on an untrained embouchure.
I could be wrong but…. Thats what it sounds like |
I don't know if you recall but I was having this same issue last March or so when I tried coming back. I quit because of it. but now I have since stopped using too much pressure, and my range actually went up due to the swollen lips being able to vibrate, and with less pressure they now are not being forced shut from that pressure. It made a huge increase in endurance. The only reason I have bad swelling now is if I play beyond my chops ability to hold the notes in place. I also can get swollen lips if i am playing really loud especially on lower notes. If the Op releases the pressure he will find that maybe his lips still swell as do mine but not as bad, and they can still produce a buzz. it normal to have some swelling, but when its choking the sound then its too much pressure, and/ or you have gone too long without a rest time to give the chops a break. seems to be that the stronger our chops the less lip swelling we get. I also should mention that for me, when I pushed my lower jaw out just slightly so that the bottom lip overlapped the top by a fraction of a mm, this allowed my bottom lip to absorb the vibrations better, and the top lip was swelling less. so loosen up the MPC pressure and it will do wonders for you. often we think its the swelling preventing us form playing but its actually the chop muscles are tired/fatigued. If I stop for 10-15 minutes rest I can go back to playing and my sound is fine again, and most of the swelling has gone. but If I play too long when I do, they do swell back up. the general rule is play then rest as long as you just played.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Douglas James wrote: | | Shaft wrote: | Sounds like “run of the mill” too much pressure on an untrained embouchure.
I could be wrong but…. Thats what it sounds like |
I don't know if you recall but I was having this same issue last March or so when I tried coming back. I quit because of it. but now I have since stopped using too much pressure, and my range actually went up due to the swollen lips being able to vibrate, and with less pressure they now are not being forced shut from that pressure. It made a huge increase in endurance. The only reason I have bad swelling now is if I play beyond my chops ability to hold the notes in place. I also can get swollen lips if i am playing really loud especially on lower notes. If the Op releases the pressure he will find that maybe his lips still swell as do mine but not as bad, and they can still produce a buzz. it normal to have some swelling, but when its choking the sound then its too much pressure, and/ or you have gone too long without a rest time to give the chops a break. seems to be that the stronger our chops the less lip swelling we get. I also should mention that for me, when I pushed my lower jaw out just slightly so that the bottom lip overlapped the top by a fraction of a mm, this allowed my bottom lip to absorb the vibrations better, and the top lip was swelling less. so loosen up the MPC pressure and it will do wonders for you. often we think its the swelling preventing us form playing but its actually the chop muscles are tired/fatigued. If I stop for 10-15 minutes rest I can go back to playing and my sound is fine again, and most of the swelling has gone. but If I play too long when I do, they do swell back up. the general rule is play then rest as long as you just played. |
yes this is a lot like my problem. When this happens, if i try to do a loose blow like a horse sigh, like kids sticking out their tongue and blowing to tease someone, i cannot do that at that at that time. I am starting to realize I press the trumpet against my lips too hard for high notes, cutting off blood flow, it also makes my tighten my upper lip so I need to relax more like you said.
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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Sforzando101
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Oct 2024
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:33 pm Post subject: Teacher |
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Study with a good teacher on an ongoing basis.
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Sforzando101 |
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Shaft
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes a mix of soft playing helps.
I find that I’ve played too long myself if I cannot feel the notes for the soft delicate playing. Once I have to start forcing to get notes out, it’s time for a break. It’s a slow and steady process building endurance, but if we listen to our body most of the time, if we’re using good technique, the endurance should be growing incrementally |
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Douglas James
Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 101
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| riverwhistles wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: | | Shaft wrote: | Sounds like “run of the mill” too much pressure on an untrained embouchure.
I could be wrong but…. Thats what it sounds like |
I don't know if you recall but I was having this same issue last March or so when I tried coming back. I quit because of it. but now I have since stopped using too much pressure, and my range actually went up due to the swollen lips being able to vibrate, and with less pressure they now are not being forced shut from that pressure. It made a huge increase in endurance. The only reason I have bad swelling now is if I play beyond my chops ability to hold the notes in place. I also can get swollen lips if i am playing really loud especially on lower notes. If the Op releases the pressure he will find that maybe his lips still swell as do mine but not as bad, and they can still produce a buzz. it normal to have some swelling, but when its choking the sound then its too much pressure, and/ or you have gone too long without a rest time to give the chops a break. seems to be that the stronger our chops the less lip swelling we get. I also should mention that for me, when I pushed my lower jaw out just slightly so that the bottom lip overlapped the top by a fraction of a mm, this allowed my bottom lip to absorb the vibrations better, and the top lip was swelling less. so loosen up the MPC pressure and it will do wonders for you. often we think its the swelling preventing us form playing but its actually the chop muscles are tired/fatigued. If I stop for 10-15 minutes rest I can go back to playing and my sound is fine again, and most of the swelling has gone. but If I play too long when I do, they do swell back up. the general rule is play then rest as long as you just played. |
yes this is a lot like my problem. When this happens, if i try to do a loose blow like a horse sigh, like kids sticking out their tongue and blowing to tease someone, i cannot do that at that at that time. I am starting to realize I press the trumpet against my lips too hard for high notes, cutting off blood flow, it also makes my tighten my upper lip so I need to relax more like you said. |
I also had the light bulb about air support go on around the same time. I was surprised to find that I closed off my throat doing high notes. the way I solved this was light pressure, just enough to allow the trumpet to rest lightly against the teeth and to create a seal then be aware of how your lips are working. Then do arpeggio slurs through the harmonic series as high as you can. if you are using the right amount of air and your embouchure is correct and you use little pressure, the slurs will be effortless. in fact it will amaze you how free your lips become. the air does the work, the mouth just creates enough tension to form the notes, so don't think with the lips think with the air. if that makes sense. a slur to G on the staff should be simple, and it should be effortless. just be aware of what is happening. if you choke up then either too much pressure, or not open throat, or both. when it "clicks" it will be effortless. then you know you have found it. I describe the feeling of this effortless slurring, is that I have this "ball" of air in my mouth that controls the notes. its very hard to describe, but its a steady column of air.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Douglas James wrote: | | a slur to G on the staff should be simple, and it should be effortless. |
I can slur a C chromatic scale and hold each note for at least 5 seconds wit my iphone tuner showing green perfect pitch but any higher and I cant reach the note. "back in the day" I could, and still probably can, put my trumpet to the side and play a G above the staff but i want to avoid the bad habits this time around.
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Shaft wrote: | Sometimes a mix of soft playing helps.
I find that I’ve played too long myself if I cannot feel the notes for the soft delicate playing. Once I have to start forcing to get notes out, it’s time for a break. It’s a slow and steady process building endurance, but if we listen to our body most of the time, if we’re using good technique, the endurance should be growing incrementally |
i agree thats a good time to take a break, I think I will pay more attention to this
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2025 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Teacher |
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| Sforzando101 wrote: | | Study with a good teacher on an ongoing basis. |
I hear y'all repeating this, i do. I really want to at some point find a teacher but I cannot afford one right now. I find youtube really helpful and these forums.
In the future I will take some in person lessons from some local pro.
edit: **** i couldnt even afford the $500 for the GEBR french horn i found that would have easily flipped for $3000 lol
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3724
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:53 am Post subject: |
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About rim pressure
'use less pressure' is often recommended, but how to do that and still maintain the sound?
First - you shouldn't be using rim pressure to FORCE your lips into position - you need to primarily use 'lip muscle' control for that (and that includes using tongue and jaw position). Rim pressure can help in the positioning, but should not be primary. The lips should not be viewed as 'guitar strings' that need to be stretched (or smashed) into position.
Reducing pressure - you need controlled rim pressure on both the upper and lower lips. Try using jaw position to slightly increase the rim pressure on the lower lip & teeth - there doesn't have to be much 'jaw movement', just a controlled amount of pressure. And ALLOW some pressure to be reduced from the upper lip - especially for higher notes, that can permit the upper lip to be able to operate.
The amount of rim pressure distribution between upper and lower depends on the range of notes being played - you need to learn what works best for you.
_________________
Most Important Note? - the next one!
Count: 4-e-and-a-PLAY
Last edited by JayKosta on Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | About rim pressure
'use less pressure' is often recommended, but how to do that and still maintain the sound?
First - you shouldn't be using rim pressure to FORCE your lips into position - you need to primarily use 'lip muscle' control for that (and that includes using tongue and jaw position). Rim pressure can help in the positioning, but should not be primary. The lips should not be viewed as 'guitar strings' that need to be stretched (or smashed) into position.
Reducing pressure - you need controlled rim pressure on both the upper and lower lips. Try using jaw position to slightly increase the rim pressure on the lower lip & teeth - there doesn't have to be much 'jaw movement', just a controlled about of pressure. And ALLOW some pressure to be reduced from the upper lip - especially for higher notes, that can permit the upper lip to be able to operate.
The amount of rim pressure distribution between upper and lower depends on the range of notes being played - you need to learn what works best for you. |
I will give this a try today
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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riverwhistles
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2024
Posts: 105
Location: Sebastopol, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | About rim pressure
'use less pressure' is often recommended, but how to do that and still maintain the sound?
First - you shouldn't be using rim pressure to FORCE your lips into position - you need to primarily use 'lip muscle' control for that (and that includes using tongue and jaw position). Rim pressure can help in the positioning, but should not be primary. The lips should not be viewed as 'guitar strings' that need to be stretched (or smashed) into position.
Reducing pressure - you need controlled rim pressure on both the upper and lower lips. Try using jaw position to slightly increase the rim pressure on the lower lip & teeth - there doesn't have to be much 'jaw movement', just a controlled amount of pressure. And ALLOW some pressure to be reduced from the upper lip - especially for higher notes, that can permit the upper lip to be able to operate.
The amount of rim pressure distribution between upper and lower depends on the range of notes being played - you need to learn what works best for you. |
Tried this last few practice rounds and started to notice a difference. I can play up to this note pretty well
Thank you, the slight pressure on lower jaw/lip by pushing out made the pressure on upper relax more.
_________________
Yer Blowin it
5yrs Jazz, 3yrs baritone, 2yrs march
1947 Custom-Model York Cornet / 2M Al-Tru
1947 Custom-Model York Trumpet / 1940-1953 mt., vernon 10.5c |
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