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Song_and_Wind
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Joined: 22 Mar 2024
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 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | I wonder if we'll ever have a thread where someone asks a question specifically about something involving playing physics, asking for input from people with knowledge about that subject, and they don't get a bunch of people saying "too much thinking! You don't need this!"? |
Not a good idea. |
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Song_and_Wind
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | Angle of reflection? What "reflection"?
Air need only to enter the cup to add pressure to the standing wave. Angle is irrelevant. |
Okay, so if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying the angle of the airstream is immaterial. I couldn't find the reference to it, but I believe I've read that there was a Schilke masterclass where he said it was necessary for there to be at least one point of reflection in the mouthpiece to set up the standing wave. Maybe I'm imagining things? |
Schilke made a very good choice to become a trumpet maker and let others handle performance. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 10:01 am Post subject: vortex shedding and sound production |
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I did some internet searching about how vortex shedding is involved with sound production in brass instruments.
The AI overview in the attached link seems like a reasonable explanation of how the lip vibrations / pulses become activated within the mouthpiece cup.
I did not find anything related to the idea of 'aiming the air flow' that Shew has mentioned as a way to adjust pitch.
link - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Mouthpiece+for+vortex+shedding+brass+instruments+ai
This the text that I think is relevant for trumpet playing -
"
AI Overview
The mouthpiece of a brass instrument plays a critical role in the vortex shedding phenomenon, which contributes to sound production. The mouthpiece, in conjunction with the player's lips, creates the initial air jet and influences the formation of vortices
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Here's how the mouthpiece is involved:
Air Jet Formation: The player's embouchure (lip shape and tension) creates a narrow opening called the aperture. Air blown through this aperture forms a jet that enters the mouthpiece.
Edge Tone and Vortex Formation: As the air jet encounters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece, it separates, creating alternating vortices on either side. This process, similar to edge tone formation, contributes to the sound.
Mouthpiece as a Resonator: The mouthpiece itself acts as a cavity resonator. The frequency of the vibrating air column in the instrument is excited by "Aeolian tones" and the "cavity pop" resonance generated within the mouthpiece.
Feedback Loop: The turbulent eddies and pressure changes created by the interaction of the air jet and the mouthpiece rim create a frequency feedback loop to the lips, influencing their vibration and contributing to the buzzing sensation felt by the player.
Shaping the Sound: The mouthpiece design significantly influences the timbre and resonance of the instrument's sound. For example, a shallow cup tends to produce a brighter sound, while a deep cup can contribute to a darker tone.
Airflow and Stability: The mouthpiece affects airflow and the speed at which air travels through it. It also contributes to the stability and projection of the sound.
Resonance Tuning: The mouthpiece helps regulate the air column to produce the harmonic series of the instrument by lowering the high harmonic resonances.
In essence, the mouthpiece's design and interaction with the player's embouchure are crucial for initiating and shaping the vortex shedding process, which in turn drives the vibration of the air column and ultimately produces the characteristic sound of a brass instrument. For example, a shallower cup tends to produce a brighter sound with easier high notes, while a deeper cup leads to a darker tone, emphasizing lower overtones.
"
_________________
Trumpet teaching is usually done with words and demonstration.
Learning to play trumpet is usually done by experimentation and practice.
If the teaching is good, it will lead to good experimentation. |
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tptptp
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
...The AI overview ....and lots of stuff |
Maybe this is just my personal ignorance and skeptical nature:
All that AI sounds so good. However, I just have difficulty believing most AI explanations without cited references.
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| tptptp wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: |
...The AI overview ....and lots of stuff |
Maybe this is just my personal ignorance and skeptical nature:
All that AI sounds so good. However, I just have difficulty believing most AI explanations without cited references. |
AI searches are extremely flawed and I disagree with you that it sounds good. Some of those sentences are globbidy glook.
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tptptp
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | I disagree with you that it sounds good. Some of those sentences are globbidy glook. |
Oh, sorry. When I said "sounds so good" I meant it with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Alas my lame written communication.
AI descriptions sound so.... AI. Sort of Eddie Haskell-esque. 
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
Edge Tone and Vortex Formation: As the air jet encounters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece, it separates, creating alternating vortices on either side. This process, similar to edge tone formation, contributes to the sound.
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Jet of air enters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece?
Are we talking about the strike edge of a flute headjoint embouchure hole?
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: |
Edge Tone and Vortex Formation: As the air jet encounters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece, it separates, creating alternating vortices on either side. This process, similar to edge tone formation, contributes to the sound.
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Jet of air enters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece?
Are we talking about the strike edge of a flute headjoint embouchure hole?
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Yeah ChatGPT is trash and confuses things like crazy.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the 'sharp edge of the rim' is confusing, but any air flow or the pressure wave inside the cup will encounter the discontinuous surface at the junction of the rim and lips - and that could result in vortex formation.
The topic that interests me is
'what causes the FIRST vibrations or pulses that generate the standing wave?'
I think there is general agreement that air can be blown into a mouthpiece without producing any buzz, but as the shank is inserted into the receiver, a standing wave sound gets produced. So WHAT causes the first actual vibrations?
Regarding AI generated text - sure it can be inaccurate, but 'good' AI can search and extract relevant info a much larger number of sources than a person can with 'manual' research.
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Trumpet teaching is usually done with words and demonstration.
Learning to play trumpet is usually done by experimentation and practice.
If the teaching is good, it will lead to good experimentation. |
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JWG
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | The topic that interests me is 'what causes the FIRST vibrations or pulses that generate the standing wave?' I think there is general agreement that air can be blown into a mouthpiece without producing any buzz, but as the shank is inserted into the receiver, a standing wave sound gets produced. So WHAT causes the first actual vibrations? |
Hi Jay . . . on this topic, I suggest that we need to distinguish between the wave front and the standing wave.
All sounds have the form of a wave, but, unless the initial wave front gets reflected back upon itself, it does not become a standing wave. Even a huge sound wave from an explosion does not create a standing wave without some means of reflecting back upon itself.
I would theorize that the vibration of our lips initiates the sound wave and that adding the mouthpiece, then a lead pipe, and then the remaining tubing of the trumpet, allows for greater and greater reflection of the initial sound wave such that it becomes a well-formed and reflected standing wave.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| JWG wrote: | ...
I would theorize that the vibration of our lips initiates the sound wave and that adding the mouthpiece, then a lead pipe, and then the remaining tubing of the trumpet, allows for greater and greater reflection of the initial sound wave such that it becomes a well-formed and reflected standing wave. |
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That is reasonable IF you believe the player has to create some degree of 'lip buzz' to get the process started.
I'm not convinced of that.
It appears to me that there might be some sort of 'vortex effect' (or some other type of 'pressure effect) that occurs inside the cup of the mouthpiece when the mouthpiece is inserted into the receiver - probably because of the change in the air flow through the mpc when the additional tubing is added.
_________________
Trumpet teaching is usually done with words and demonstration.
Learning to play trumpet is usually done by experimentation and practice.
If the teaching is good, it will lead to good experimentation. |
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swthiel
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 11:29 am Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: |
Edge Tone and Vortex Formation: As the air jet encounters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece, it separates, creating alternating vortices on either side. This process, similar to edge tone formation, contributes to the sound.
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Jet of air enters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece?
Are we talking about the strike edge of a flute headjoint embouchure hole?
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There has been work done on vortex shedding in flutes, it occurs as the air stream impinges on the embouchure hole (as you suggest). That's a more classic vortex shedding situation, where the fluid stream impinges on a solid obstacle.
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mm55
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 11:41 am Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| swthiel wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: |
Edge Tone and Vortex Formation: As the air jet encounters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece, it separates, creating alternating vortices on either side. This process, similar to edge tone formation, contributes to the sound.
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Jet of air enters the sharp rim of the mouthpiece?
Are we talking about the strike edge of a flute headjoint embouchure hole?
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There has been work done on vortex shedding in flutes, it occurs as the air stream impinges on the embouchure hole (as you suggest). That's a more classic vortex shedding situation, where the fluid stream impinges on a solid obstacle. |
And the generative AI bot didn't understand the difference between the sound-producing mechanisms of the trumpet and a flute. This is an example of how AI is not a reliable source of such information. Whether it's faster than searching the scientific literature is not really relevant, when it's generating bunk.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| swthiel wrote: | | ... There has been work done on vortex shedding in flutes, it occurs as the air stream impinges on the embouchure hole (as you suggest). That's a more classic vortex shedding situation, where the fluid stream impinges on a solid obstacle. |
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That is what I also found regarding 'vortex shedding' for instruments such as flutes, organ pipes, etc. I think the more general concern about vortex shedding is for industrial applications such as fluid flowing through pipes, and rocket engines.
If anyone finds some specific 'scientific study' about air flow and 'pressure disturbance' in brass instrument cup mouthpieces, I'd like to learn about it.
I didn't find anything that detailed myself.
_________________
Trumpet teaching is usually done with words and demonstration.
Learning to play trumpet is usually done by experimentation and practice.
If the teaching is good, it will lead to good experimentation. |
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swthiel
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| JayKosta wrote: | If anyone finds some specific 'scientific study' about air flow and 'pressure disturbance' in brass instrument cup mouthpieces, I'd like to learn about it.
I didn't find anything that detailed myself. |
All this is really interesting to me, but without a full system model (airstream, mouth, lips, mouthpiece, and horn), I don't know that physical modeling is going to get me any farther than I'd get following practical advice from outstanding players. I have access to the appropriate CFD tools and maybe (maybe!) could probably cobble together a model based on the stuff I've already found. But I'd probably do more for my playing if I invested that time practicing.
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ConMoto9
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:12 pm Post subject: 🎯💯👍🏻🎺 |
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“ But I'd probably do more for my playing if I invested that time practicing.”
🎯💯👍🏻🎺
Woodshedding vs. Vortex Shedding
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2025 4:29 am Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| swthiel wrote: |
All this is really interesting to me, but without a full system model (airstream, mouth, lips, mouthpiece, and horn), I don't know that physical modeling is going to get me any farther than I'd get following practical advice from outstanding players.
...
But I'd probably do more for my playing if I invested that time practicing.
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Very true, this doesn't have much value to 'learning how to play', 'how to improve playing', or 'teaching about playing'.
It's curiosity about 'what is really happening' when playing.
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Trumpet teaching is usually done with words and demonstration.
Learning to play trumpet is usually done by experimentation and practice.
If the teaching is good, it will lead to good experimentation. |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2025 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
The topic that interests me is
'what causes the FIRST vibrations or pulses that generate the standing wave?'
I think there is general agreement that air can be blown into a mouthpiece without producing any buzz, but as the shank is inserted into the receiver, a standing wave sound gets produced. So WHAT causes the first actual vibrations?
|
Let us distinguish two extreme situations:
1) a distinct, pointed, tongued attack, and
2) easing into the note from complete silence.
In case (1) the attack can be approximated by a sudden step in air pressure. This step contains ALL feasible frequencies, with amplitude decreasing as frequency increases (demonstrated by Fourier transform of a Heaviside step function, cf. page 6 of https://www.princeton.edu/~cuff/ele301/files/lecture8_4.pdf). The frequencies that coincide with natural frequencies of the horn will be amplified.
In case (2) the frequencies that will be amplified stem from the whispering sound that happens as the air is blown within the horn tubing, mouthpiece and lips. |
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Song_and_Wind
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2025 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| swthiel wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | If anyone finds some specific 'scientific study' about air flow and 'pressure disturbance' in brass instrument cup mouthpieces, I'd like to learn about it.
I didn't find anything that detailed myself. |
All this is really interesting to me, but without a full system model (airstream, mouth, lips, mouthpiece, and horn), I don't know that physical modeling is going to get me any farther than I'd get following practical advice from outstanding players. I have access to the appropriate CFD tools and maybe (maybe!) could probably cobble together a model based on the stuff I've already found. But I'd probably do more for my playing if I invested that time practicing. |
Correct. The information is about as irrelevant as engine technology is to a Formula 1 driver that simply needs to focus on driving the car. |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 12:44 am Post subject: Re: vortex shedding and sound production |
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| Song_and_Wind wrote: | | swthiel wrote: | | JayKosta wrote: | If anyone finds some specific 'scientific study' about air flow and 'pressure disturbance' in brass instrument cup mouthpieces, I'd like to learn about it.
I didn't find anything that detailed myself. |
All this is really interesting to me, but without a full system model (airstream, mouth, lips, mouthpiece, and horn), I don't know that physical modeling is going to get me any farther than I'd get following practical advice from outstanding players. I have access to the appropriate CFD tools and maybe (maybe!) could probably cobble together a model based on the stuff I've already found. But I'd probably do more for my playing if I invested that time practicing. |
Correct. The information is about as irrelevant as engine technology is to a Formula 1 driver that simply needs to focus on driving the car. |
Niki Lauda successfully demonstrated that the driver needs to know, and be able to improve, the car inside out.
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