The age of the disposable instrument (trumpet)

[Andy Del]

Your thoughts?

We live in a time when disposable is the norm. Your TV lasts a few years, a washing machine maybe 4-5, cars get replaced after 3… It seems to me that trumpets (musical instruments) are going the same way.

Why? Instrument quality is going to the dogs.

- Large makers are moving their automated factories to ever cheaper locations to save money (make more profit).
- More and more ‘makers’ source their instruments from large overseas factories, to save money (make more profit).
- It’s all about the ‘latest and greatest’ model, based on current models with minuscule tweaks, to save money (make more profit). (Heaven forbid you design something new and ‘better’, if that’s possible)
- The raw materials going into instruments is becoming more and more rubbish, to save money (make more profit). Look at all the ‘cupronickel’ to stop corrosion. And which rather well known manufacturer is using knowingly brass with a zinc content of 40%+ for their tubing?
- Lack of skilled artisans. Same well known manufacturer has stated to insiders they are having all sorts of trouble employing and training young people. (Saw a lacquered trombone bell that was clearly not buffed - sent out from the factory)
- Manufacturers unwilling to initiate high level QC on product (see above). So the customers are left returning instruments which should not have even gone out the assembly room door.

I look at my Olds Recording cornet, from the 1960’s and it’s alive and well, minimal wear and plays like a dream. My Kanstul instruments are essentially the same, been playing my daily Bb for some 20 years. My Schilke instruments which look like new inside, despite my owning them.

Then I look at things for sale now…

Cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[Dkjcliff]

This is interesting. I don’t have any insider knowledge so I don’t know what changes have been made by manufacturers in terms of materials and artisans they employ. I would love to hear more details.

I will say that in my playing “career” I have owned a brand new Bach 18072, Yamaha flugel, Yamaha EM first gen, Thane standard, and Bach 19072V. I’ve also owned a used Getzen Genesis and Selmer Radial. The two best horns I’ve ever played are the most modern: Thane and Bach vindy. Very different characters and for now I’ve landed on the Vindy as my style. But while the older horns were very good in their own ways, none compared to these modern horns both in terms of playability and overall sound.

Maybe you are focusing on certain manufacturers that are now making horns in a certain country overseas. I have my suspicions about what that means for overall quality having myself lived in said country, though things seem to be rapidly improving there at least in terms of quality of manufacturing. I haven’t seen many independent reviews of one of said horns yet and will be interested when they start popping up. But, in sum, in my experience American manufacturers are making some of the best horns they’ve ever made right now. Having owned a pretty mediocre Bach in the ‘90’s, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the 190 series.
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Bach 19072V
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[Richard III]

The most pleasure I get just holding a horn is when I play my 1943 Conn 80A cornet. It would seem to be indestructible. The tubing is heavy and valves will probably last forever. The wide wrap layout with a little more left hand room is just amazing.

[img]IMG_0946 by genevie7, on Flickr[/img]
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Richard

1970's Olds Ambassador Cornet

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I think it's a mixed bag. I have a kid who plays euphonium and you can get a Chinese stencil compensating instrument for $600-800. It objectively sounds better than the $3000 non-compensating Yamaha 321 and is pretty close to the $13,000 Besson instruments. I don't think they last as long--plating wears, they have thinner metal, the cases are junky--but they're an awesome instrument to take your kid through high school.

To me it is sounding like the modern cheap flugelhorns play more in tune than the 50 year old instruments (in general). Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm hearing that people are as happy with the ACB/Dillons flugels as they are with the instruments from the 60s/70s.

I think a lot of the traditional rental programs are predatory, so it's nice if parents can buy an instrument for their kid that will take them far enough to know if they'll stick with it.

A lot of the old instruments end up in landfills too. There's not much market for old student instruments.

[stuartissimo]

[Tritone]

Wondering whether anyone here might be able to conjecture, correctly or incorrectly, about manufacturer(s) that now are or may be making instruments using brass whose zinc content is around 40% or more. Or, alternatively, conjecture about the country of same. Or, even which manufacturers are not doing so. Such information is difficult for most of us to find.

Manufacturing quality is of great importance to many of us. It's often only from forums like this where we can get the big picture and thus see beyond our own individual experiences.

Many items now are made more cheaply and less well than they used to be. Power tools are a good example - I can think of a maker whose items previously were known for lifetime warranties, substantial but not exorbitant prices and very dependable workmanship. Now, however, its reputation is, well, "not so much." At the same time, there now are an increasing number of smaller makers who produce very good quality tools but they cost an arm and a leg.

Similarly, there is a widening gap between the price of new "entry level" trumpets and new "really good trumpets." The entry level horns are plentiful and it can be hard for a young player (or mom and dad) to understand the concept of quality and why it's important - especially when the kid may or may not continue playing.

I'm glad that some of what we used to think of years ago as "plus or minus" trumpet makers have improved their quality by a great deal. I hope that this progress continues so that families aren't as tempted to default to buying junk.

All that said, if reputable manufacturers turn to cheaper materials, we may eventually see a situation similar to that of other items - where quality is available, predominately from small makers or perhaps small exclusive divisions of larger makers, but you have to REALLY pay up for it.

[Dayton]

That's an interesting question. It assumes that you can make a trumpet that sounds good and performs reliably (valve action, etc.) for some reasonable period of time before it wears out/stops working. I haven't encountered an instrument like that (yet).

I have encountered traditional brass student-level horns that are essentially unrepairable due to cheap materials, poor construction, and/or unavailable parts. But those horns don't play well to begin with.

The exception would be with "plastic" instruments like the pTrumpet and pCornet. They are designed to be disposable.

As an aside, I look to trumpet makers like Jason Harrelson for pointing to what the future of trumpet making could be with new/different materials, 3D printing, modular designs, etc.

[yourbrass]

"And which rather well known manufacturer is using knowingly brass with a zinc content of 40%+ for their tubing?"

That seems high, my understanding of yellow brass alloy is that it's generally 70/30 copper/zinc. It increases the possibility of rot through dezincification.

Yamaha had problems early on with rotting yellow brass pipes and tubes, but they changed the alloy on leadpipes forty years ago to high copper content. I just don't see those leadpipes rotting.

Horns from the mainland have improved, and the above posters are right - how much does a parent have to spend to get a kid through school band? Problem is when they break. Some of us will not work on them.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13, ACB 2C, Mt. Vernon Bach backbore
Courtois 156, James New custom piece
https://yourbrass.com/
https://lionelemde.smugmug.com/

[Halflip]

deleted
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[Subtropical and Subpar]

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

[Jaw04]

Instrument quality is not going downhill in my opinion. We just have a wider spectrum of options than ever before in the era of globalization. You can get an $80 piece of crap, if you want to. If money is no problem you can get all kinds of insane instruments more so than any time in history.

I think large brands like Yamaha and Bach are making awesome horns, Carolbrass as well, just to name a few, and then you also have boutique craftsmen doing their own thing more so than at any time as far as I know, again, thanks to the internet and globalization. You don't need a huge corporation behind you to get your name out there online.
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Full-time music teacher
Gigs and private lessons on the side
MM - trumpet performance

[stuartissimo]

[trickg]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the original post of this thread. This could possibly be the case when it comes to student horns, or bargain lines of horns, (although I will maintain that the ACB stuff is very very playable and a major bang for the buck - been gigging my ACB Doubler flugel since 2013) but for anything pro?

None of the pro stuff I've seen in recent years is designed to wear out or made cheaply. I've been gigging my Jupiter 1600i for 10 years and it still looks great and is going strong. That horn has seen a boatload of use in the time that I've had it.

Don't get caught up in this nostalgic idea that, "they just don't make them the way they used to." You're right - they don't. In most cases what you're getting is way better than anything made in yesteryear.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[kehaulani]

The premise is faulty.
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Yamaha French Horn

[Quadstriker]

[LittleRusty]

[Quadstriker]

"This one time this one thing broke" anecdote does not establish a norm as stated in the OP.

[Betcar81]

I play a Bach 37 from 1970, a 37 from 2003, the sound is broader on the 37 from 2003, the 37 from 1970 is more agile, similar intonation, the quality of the materials is better on the 1970, nickel rings and caps, better quality brass, the lacquer holds up better, the leadpipe is practically perfect, in general I am aware that the 2003 will be a wreck in 30 years.

[kehaulani]

One can find plenty exceptions to the rule.
That does not mean that the exception is the rule.
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Yamaha French Horn