Playing with Miles

4Him · Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 4:49 am Post subject:

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this subject....

I am one of the come-back guys-- I've been playing a lot and practicing a lot for the past few years and feel pretty good about my progress. I've never had a lot of exposure to playing jazz, but have always love to listen-- especially Miles Davis.

Recently, someone gave me the book with all of the transcriptions from Kind of Blue. Of course, that CD is one of my favorites-- unbelievable recording. Although it almost seems sacreligious to play along with that recording, besides the rush from playing with one of the most incredible combos ever put together-- I am getting a new sense for playing jazz. It is a little like having Miles for a teacher. When he plays as smooth and flowing as a mountain stream on a cool day (sorry about the poetic sound of that-- but he IS poetic), it causes me to take the edge off, to blow long, smooth phrases. When he ups the energy level-- I hear how he does it with passion (not a blast of chaotic, edgy brassiness) and I follow suit.

Anyway, even though I feel like I might get struck by lightning for doing it, I think it is helping me be a better musician. I almost feel ready to step to the plate and read with some of you REAL jazz players.

What do you think about learning this way? Any other ideas? My next thought is--- after getting to know the music intimately, improvising seems like a natural thing to do...

Your thoughts will be appreciated. I respect you guys so much.

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 5:46 am Post subject:

Gee, learning by following the sound of a player you admire, I wonder what (Chicago) school of (Chicago) thought that might (Chicago) come from?

I think it's a great idea! And, taking the next step of incorporating your own licks is crucial, IMHO. Ultimately, you want to develop your own sound and style, not just be an clone. Certainly it's true that listening to players you admire, in any genre, is a good way to develop a feel for the sound and style you want to play. Transcribing can also help, though I must admit I rarely seem to have the time to do this. It can help connect the sound with the notes on the page, which is a way of helping your sight reading by attacking it from another angle. You will need to learn to sight read well, and hopefully will be memorizing a set of standards so you don't need a Real Book on the bandstand all the time (another area where I fail miserably, but then again I'm not playing in a jazz band -- yet!) Finally, Aebersold and Band in the Box can help by providing set play material (Aebersold) and the ability to slow down, change keys, work up your own material, etc. (BIAB).

Yup, at the risk of getting Lee to shake his head again, here again we've proof there's a little Chicago in us all.

Don -- duckin' and runnin' again...
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

PH · Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 6:18 am Post subject:

4Him-

Voila! You have just asked permission to learn to play jazz the way virtually every jazz musician in history has learned to play.

Learning chords, scales, piano voicings, written transcriptions, etc. are all supposed to be enhancements to this basic thing you want to try. Get a favorite recording. Put on the open-ear headphones and play along. Sometimes I improvise my own stuff over the record and subliminally I hear Miles, Bill, Cannon & the gang. Other times I try to pick out bits of their phrases. Eventually I learn the melodies and big chunks of the recording or even entire solos. When I rest my chops I keep the CD playing and continue the same process by singing along with my voice. At some point I know that recording, tire of it, or fall in love with a new CD. Then I start the same thing with another CD.

I tell students that they should try to focus on one or two recordings at a time. It takes a whole lot of repetition to really learn much of what is on a CD by ear. If you did this some every day and spent a year with 10 or 15 favorite recordings you would find that you would discover lots of amazing things and have a blast in the process.

Oh yeah, don't be afraid that this is sacreligious or that the recording will lose its charm or mystery. A great record like Kind of Blue is plenty strong enough to stand up to scrutiny on a number of levels and retain its magic.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:13 ]

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

PH · Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:55 am Post subject:

Oh yeah, that 15% of the cover price that goes to the author is a really fat retirement nest egg!

4Him · Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:41 am Post subject:

Thanks for you comments, guys. If you guys say I am on the right track I can feel good about that.

By the way, Don, I've followed both the Chicago and the Adam forums to some extent for a while. I have an education background, and the foudations about learning in both of these schools of thought are very sound from my perspective. When I became recommitted to reaching a new level of playing a year or so ago, I went back to my professional roots. With a doctorate in education, surely I knew something about learning that would help to move me forward. Again, without really knowing much about the Chicago concept (or Adam), I started listening differently. After all, a premise of good learning theory is modeling. Of course I listened to my favorite jazz trumpet players (and some new ones), but I also listened to vocal music-- like Bocelli. And I listened to them all differently and tried to discover how they made notes music, how they expressed themselves through music. I began to discover among other things some important things about articulation-- how we "speak" the notes is a whole-nother dimension beyond tone and reading.

Well, besides the continual work on the chops (some problems there, but that is another story), listening has been the best thing I have ever done for myself.

Another question: Playing with Miles has been great fun and beneficial, and I will take you all up on your suggestions. Now, I really want to have a shot at playing with a jazz group. How do I find one?

Thanks again for your advise.

Ken

PH · Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 7:15 am Post subject:

4Him-

When you start looking for people to play with you are starting to think about networking. Here are some ideas.

1) See who posts on this board from your general area (Charly Raymond, etc.) and see if they know of opportunities for comebackers like you to hook up with a kicks big band or combo.

2) Many community college groups find a spot for comeback players in their ensembles. Investigate those sorts of possibilities.

3) Call jazz and trumpet faculty at nearby colleges to find out if they know of opportunities for you or other people you should call. Start with Chuck Owens, Jack Wilkins, and Jay Coble at USF.

4) You might want to attend one of the many jazz workshops that attract lots of comeback players. I know of many people who met as students at the Aebersold workshops, discovered they were neighbors, and now have a group that gets together regularly back home.

5) Post your desire to find others to play with on one of the jazz BBS sites like Aebersold's <jazzbooks.com> or <jazzcorner.com>

6) Go to clubs and concerts where local pros are playing and ask them if they know of people who might want to play with you.

Good luck! Meanwhile, playing with Miles and Aebersold CDs isn't bad. It just isn't like playing with real people.

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:38 am Post subject:

I find, myself that transcribing is very time consuming and it helps me a relativly small abount... It improves my transcription skills but it takes hours for me to figure a Parker chourus out. In that time I could have picked up the omni book, learned the solo, and watched the chords to know the relation the notes have over the chords. I think it's important to transcribe so you can get your ear around what tones sound like in a chord, and why they are there... through harmony, umm written harmony, chord theory? I don't know exactlly how that should be put. I play with Miles and learn his sound not his note choices... I dunno, I'm young right and don't have a teacher, so I guess I could be like way off bass here too huh? But I don't see the harm in taking the short cut, and yes there is alot to be said about learning off a recording... you know the licks alor better, same with the charts. Would you all also recomend starting from scratch with no chords at all, as well... I mean I learned straight no chase and stuff like that, but for harder tunes... is it good to use writte out chords?

Glad somebody brought up this topic,
Chuck

RooTheHorn · Regular Member Joined: 08 Feb 2002 Posts: 19

hi
Personally, I start off with a solo I like, and record it onto my PC, then I take it piece by piece and learn the lines on the piano. Once I can play the whole thing on the piano, I pick up the horn and learn it till I can play it well. Then I try to transpose it to different keys. I find this last part is really good for making sure that Im actually understanding what degrees Im playing i.e sixth, root min3rd, rather than just learning the fingering.

keep chillin with Miles, Roo

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:41 pm Post subject:

WHAT?????
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! " OUR "4HIM"----ACTUALLY LISTENING TOO AND PLAYIN' THAT DEVIL'S MUSIC???"
All razzzin and jazzzin' aside..enjoy the backslide and the ride! FUN ISN'T IT?
We won't snitch on you to the "FLOCK!"

))

Oh for the shame of it all...and all that jazz!

)))

4Him · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:24 am Post subject:

Don-

I take you comment in jest-- I assume that was your intent. Let's get real-- great music is great music! I don't think you've heard the band I play in at church-- most of us who play in church aren't "bringing in the sheaves"! Next time you are in the Tampa Bay area, I'd love to have you blow with us. You won't be the first "badboy" to enter the building!

Music-- it is all good at some point-- just perverted at times in our culture.

Ken

[ This Message was edited by: 4Him on 2002-06-20 13:26 ]

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 12:24 pm Post subject:

4Him · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:11 pm Post subject:

Don-
I know you are just bustin' my chops-- no need-- I've busted them rehearsing this week for a patriotic program.

I will private email you, but I can't resist:

WHO SAID JAZZ IS THE DEVIL'S MUSIC!?!?!? It sure wasn't me! Yes, I am "4Him", and am most greatful for the beautiful and perfect gift from Him-- music! I am a blessed guy that he filled me with love of music-- almost all music-- and gave me a gift (sometimes evidenced) for playing it!

Like I said before, when are you gonna come and play with me at the Gathering-- it might change your perception about the kind of music that happens in churches!

OK-- now I am done busting YOUR chops. I'll drop you an email this weekend about the book.

Ken

PH · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:47 pm Post subject:

I think the best way to transcribe music is to NOT WRITE IT DOWN!

Just listen to it and play along until you can play the whole thing and match not just the notes, but the dynamics, articulation, phrasing, etc. THAT is what will make you a great player quicker than anything else.

I will say that writing down transcriptions helps in at least 2 ways.

1) It will make you a better reader and writer of music.
2) If you have trouble understanding how theory really connects with the way people play then writing it down and anaylzing how the solo works harmonically, rhythmically, etc. can really make this make sense.

Even so, I would learn to play the entire solo before I started trying to write it down.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-06-21 01:49 ]

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:29 pm Post subject:

Ken!
Has the "MILES CARE PACKAGE ARRIVED YET?
Stay cool....play cool!

Our heat wave here in Seattle has definately passed and its back to cold rain today and tonight and it looks like our "sparklers and ladyfingers...just might get wet on the 4th...What a bummer!!!

Good weather here for reading.
I am reading an article about Miles Davis and the making of his 'BITCHES BREW album.

What a vivid story this truly is. Bye the way the artist who painted the radical cover art...just passed away and crossed over a few weeks ago.

4Him · Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:46 am Post subject:

Don-

No, I didn't get the Miles care package yet-- but it was kind of you to send one. I look forward to getting it. I'll let you know when it comes.

Have a great weekend and here's hoping the 4th won't be too rainy for you. We are enjoying some much needed rain here in the Tampa Bay area. It rained BUCKETS yesterday, but nobody is complaining here.

Take care...

Ken
_________________
The man that has no music in himself,nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, strategems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night, and his affections are dark as Erebus: let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare