Another Lip issue/embouchure

[Emb_Enh]

Nice one Dave Bacon...I wholeheartedly agree...
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Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[Emb_Enh]

so you're saying that the lip curl is a small thing that will be like natural and wont be a disturbance?

============================

Yes that's right.....

Lip curl moves the stiffer portion of the lip into the vibration position and it adds a one way valve effect with the fleshy part that is rolled in. Imagine your lips "without"
lip curl ....like this...

I
I


Now imagine with lip curl your lips like this..... a swing door effect.
)
)

...the air blown this way >>>> through the above curled lips will aid in closing off the aperture a little more thereby aiding in keeping a closed lip postion over a given period of time. Try doing this with your hands for a better visual effect!


Using....

33% LIP CURL

33% COMPRESSION

33% TENSION

33+ 33+ 33 = AIR GOING NOWAIR!!! : )

That's why you can't use all three, the total combination is too much....

SO I'm not talking an embouchure change. It is using your old embouchure.

However it is getting you to rethink the degree to which you already use of the above formula.

I guarantee you use TOO much mpc pressure already in ALL registers

...WE ALL DO!!!

Use your air to defend your lips against the onset of mpc pressure. I like to imagine my air pushing the cup of the mpc away from my chops whenever I'm playing. It's just a visualisation that works for my tiny brain!

Exceptions to these Principles......

There will be people who contradict these principles, however their method of achieving their success may be SO specific to their individual physical makeup and/or highly individualised routine, that it may be impossible for another player to achieve the same results without the EXACT same circumstances / physiology [same teeth / oral cavity etc..]

REMEMBER.......

AIR + RELAXATION = FRIEND // ....EXAGERRATION = FOE (Don Jacoby)
DON'T EXAGGERATE YOUR ADJUSTMENTS TOO FAR!!!

LET THE SOUND BE YOUR GUIDE!!!
RELAX...ENJOY THE PUZZLE!!!

...and George...I think your practicing TOO much...your TOO tired...take a day off once a week.....99% of my famous interviwees at the website do so and say it is essential....

http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC/celeb.html

Yours Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[trumpetteacher1]

George,

Lip movement while playing tends to be too complex to analyze. The movements are highly coordinated, and more "micro" than "macro." So introducing a simple lip curl or tuck will often upset the lip balance, and lead to undesirable results. It's like using a blunt instrument to do a delicate procedure.

But you can also stumble across a lip position that seems to help some aspects of your playing. The question is, how do you add this element without upsetting everything else?

I think that you need to increase the general intelligence of your lips.

My approach, through using specific exercises, is to actually increase lip movement in order to "wake up" the lip range of motion potential. Once awakened, the lips can more easily find the sweet spot which is characteristic of the complex balance between rolled in and rolled out lip position.

Once you find the sweet spot, you will never, ever want to go back to your old way of playing.

In the beginning of this process, you typically feel more lip motion than you desire. You may even have a register break when going from low to high where some subtle shifting takes place. But ultimately, the movements refine (more inside the mouthpiece) and minimize, resulting in the experience of a continuous lip flex from low to high register.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[B_Starry]

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do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God

[trjeam]

[Perry dAndrea]

After reading the following replies below (yes, contrary to the appearance of my original post here, I do SOMETIMES actually read these topics to which I am replying..),
I was apparently told in one post that what I had written here amounted to just a bunch of meandering crap..

Except for that one short post with the "LOLs", my brethren below and directly adjacent above offered some good value. When you get down to it, you find that there's a problem. The rest is an adventure with you at the wheel, driven by intelligence, awareness of the resources around you, and deep, deep, deep, DEEP, DEEEP my brethren, DEEEEEP souuuulll.


pd





[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-07-06 00:56 ]

[Blue Devil]

[trumpetteacher1]

Perry,

Well written, as always. I agree with your general points, but your version of what George is doing is quite different than mine. He said that he was previously using very little bottom lip (high placement?) and that he was experimenting with putting more bottom lip in the mouthpiece. I interpret that as either moving the mouthpiece placement lower, or rolling in the bottom lip, but not necessarily placing the bottom lip UNDER the top lip.

George, clarify?


Mike (Blue Devil), your concerns are real, but there is another side to it.

There are a couple of really young guys who post a lot on this forum. At first glance, they seem to be in a big hurry to have it all right now. But at the same time, they seem to be more dogged in their pursuit of excellence than the vast majority of kids their age, and that has to count for something. Maybe they will go down a few blind alleys, but with their determination, I think that they will probably end up extremely successful.

There is a lot of fear out there about embouchure, particularly changing it in any way. As a result, we often hear the idea to "not worry about the lip, it will take care of itself over time."

To me, that's EXTREME, as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

The truth is, there are ways to positively alter the embouchure which are incredibly hard, and ways that are relatively easy.

No flames, just a different perspective!

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[trjeam]

[histrumpet]

Blue Devil,
I think the reason he thinks he needs an embouchure change is the set-up he uses now isn't getting the job done. No flames here just more proof that trumpet playing is more than puffing air, you have to use an embouchure too. If he had not "messed with the lips" he would never have broken his glass ceiling. I am sure he will have great sucess with his newly found range.

[Perry dAndrea]

"If he had not "messed with the lips" he would never have broken his glass ceiling. I am sure he will have great sucess with his newly found range." -histrumpet

That observation is more significant than all the other words on the previous page, combined.

..breaking that glass ceiling..

..yeah.

pd

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"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen

[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-07-05 22:09 ]

[Perry dAndrea]

trumpetteacher-

What trjeam said was that he "tucked my bottom lip in", first post, and "tucked my bottom lip in all the way" second post. That should light up some flags way beyond the concept of just putting more bottom lip into the mouthpiece, surely.

trjeam-

"What I did was rolled the bottom lip. LOL it would imposible to play with the bottom lip under the top lip. LOL how do you even do that??"
-trjeam

Respectfully, George, I will dismiss the LOLs (and the way your incredulous response is worded) as an indication of a complete miss on your part in terms of understanding this idea.

I was afraid it would go over maybe one or two folks' heads, and that's one reason I edited it out. I'll give it another shot here at a more basic level of comprehension, and if it still is beyond your grasp, don't worry about it. You may find your way to the light without falling prey to this condition which I have described (I HOPE), but if not, you should really examine it more closely. GOD what I would give if someone had spelled this one out to me years ago.

Wait- DON'T "gear up" for a response- READ. I'm really offering help here. You earned my tone with your brush-off, so just go with what you created here. Chalk up the color in this post to my inevitable expressiveness in reaction to your flippant dismissal of my version of coming to your aid via this bb. I spent a lot of time and thought on that post, and had you taken the time to just slow down and carefully read what was offered to you, you would've gotten it, because this condition is not only real, but downright epidemic among weak players. And even if the malfunctioning condition isn't exactly what you have going on, the remedy is precisely what you or any player needs, who has a history of getting the upper registers via cramming the mouthpiece.

It's VERY simple, yet VERY integral to any discussion on lip compression which is at the very heart of breaking free from mouthpiece pressure in the upper register.

Of COURSE the bottom lip is "under" the upper lip. That is, unless you play hanging upside down (which I have done on stage, but that's a different story!). But I think what you couldn't grasp was the idea that when the upper lip relaxes or loses strength, or doesn't have strength to begin with, the lower lip, being pushed upward to meet the upper lip, will slide somewhat BEHIND the upper lip, (as well as continuing to be below it for pete's sake - after all, the chin, which the lower lip is attached to, stays "under" the nose, which the upper lip is attached to. Let's put "under" to rest now, as we know, the lower lip stays under the upper lip.) (sheesh..)

For the "behind" part: I taught trumpet to jr high and high school students for eight years and discovered that a great number of weaker players were allowing the lower lip to slide just a little bit behind the upper lip. NOT between the upper lip and the upper TEETH. PLEASE.. Use your good sense here, man. But in this configuration, the vibrating area of the lower lip is directly under (in severe cases, BEHIND) the upper central incisors, putting it just BEHIND, NOT DIRECTLY UNDER, the upper lip.

This causes the player to play with the horn pivoted downward. You cannot play with any significant amount of downward pivot without the lower lip being at least *somewhat* behind the upper lip.

Try it, and if you're really paying attention, you 'll see that this is the case. To do a buzz this way (what you declared as an impossibility) is to close your lips, make sure your teeth are apart, shift your lower lip until the very inner soft part of it is contacting the bottom edge of your upper teeth. Now just pull your lower lip downward just barely away from the teeth. Now buzz it that way. Here's the tricky part, and the reason why many players will fail at the ability to create true compression with their lips:

In this position, especially after having played this way for years, the lower lip may FEEL like its directly SOUTH, HEAD-ON, of the upper lip, but closer examination will reveal that it's JUST enough, just barely BEHIND the upper lip as well as below it (translation: OFF-CENTER), that if you pushed that lower lip upward with any apreciable muscular force against the upper lip, it will SLIP BEHIND IT, making it very difficult to achieve lip compression.

They have to be directly head-on, to achieve maximum compression.

Look at it this way: If you tried to crush something, such as an orange, between the palms of your hands, and rather than the hands being directly head-on against each other, they were instead off center, the orange would slip OUT, and one hand would end up slipping PAST the other instead of directly palm against palm. If they were lined up palm against palm, proper compression would come a whole lot easier, and the orange would be crushed.

OK, so here you have lips instead of hands, airstream instead of orange. If the lower lip is TUCKED (the first way you described this thing) and the upper lip is NOT, then the lower lip will not be able to push directly against the center of the upper lip but rather will slip behind it. MAYBE even in front of it. But I never saw that in my students or myself. If, however, the upper lip is flexed to be tucked in also, it can COUNTER the potential of the lower lip slipping BY it and instead meet that lower lip center-to-center, head on, making possible the most efficient compression possible.

For years, I would have sworn to the heavens that my lips were meeting head on, one directly above the other, until I examined it closely coupled with a hard look at why my trumpet was pivoted down so much, and then by feel, as well as via studying my students embouchers. I realized that I couldn't get that hard compression so necessary without mouthpiece pressure, because my lips were not lined up directly, but rather off center, the NOT-so-firm upper lip allowing the lower lip to slip PAST its leading edge to an area just behind it when they were pushed together.

In fact, when this happens, one of the only ways I know of that can counter and prevent it is to flex the upper lip into a a position where it is firmly "poised" to roll inward, almost in a "guarding" stance to keep the lower lip directly in line with it.. Sort of the way a basketball guard will stay in front of the man with the ball, shifting back or forth, keeping him DIRECTLY head on, so the player with the ball can't SLIP BY.

I hesitated to go into these details with you for two reasons:

1. Your response, after all I wrote on your behalf, was a (revealingly uninformed) POKE at the idea which I had addressed as a VERY common problem among weaker trumpet players, and

2. Your eventual vagueness about this lower lip thing (as of that response) which put the greatest confusion, ironically, when you were supposedly CLARIFYING what you were doing (first it was "tucked", which to me would logically mean "in", but then you called it "rolled", which usually means "out", but could also mean "in". But, in all those posts, you just said "tucked". Anyway, this lack of consistency made me slightly wary of your facility with mechanical nomenclature.

After our cat had an operation, my girlfriend's younger brother (age 1 was instructed only to stroke the kitty, but not to touch her with any impact on her back. He later said, "I only patted her on her back." I said, "you weren't supposed to 'pat' her, but just to stroke her." He said, "I JUST PATTED HER. YOU SAID IT WAS OK!!" I said, "look," and went over to the kitty. I said, "Show me very gently what you did." He said, as he reached for her, "I'll show you EXACTLY what I did. I PATTED her." Then he proceeded to -stroke- the kitty in his demonstration. Then he was all like,"SEE?"

So he was wrong, but actually right. He just didn't bother examining the language that was going on.

To react incredulously to a member's sincere, lengthy, thoughtful, and detailed post written by someone who is obviously attempting to help steer you from disaster that HE went through (backed with years of experience teaching students followed by the discovery of my own weakness which I would've given ANYTHING if someone had alerted ME to these revelations ten years ago) by poking fun at it with LOLs is an invitation to flames, if not a flame itself, in disguise, if not a big red flag showing just how little actual *detailed* attention you pay to these very intricate physiological functions.

The key to succesful emboucher development to play high notes with less mouthpiece pressure is the ability to compress the lips *together* under the influence of a forceful airstream. No way around that. NOBODY with any experience will argue with that. There's MORE to it when you get to centering the pitch, etc, but that particular tenet is rock solid.

NOW: If someone was "tucking" or "rolling" BOTH lips, why would they describe it as "tucking the lower lip"? And this is also a player who admits to a long history of using severe mouthpiece pressure. These are SIGNS, my friend. WARNING signs of both what's there (imbalance) and what's NOT there (sufficient STRENGTH in the lips to achieve great compression against each other).

Tucking one lip and not the other OR rolling one lip and not the other (IMBALANCE), will lead to the lips not lining up head-on but rather off center, almost guaranteeing that you will not achieve full compression any more than if you were trying to squeeze an orange between your palms without those palms being lined up head-on against each other.

That's it. There's a lot more, but ya gotta get this part FIRST, no matter WHAT or WHOSE "SCHOOL" you use to get there.

Take the Adam School. You can have the greatest airstream in the world, but if your lips aren't pushing directly at each other, compression will have to be achieved from some OUTSIDE FORCE. The tremendous airstream required for upper level playing will blow apart and prevent vibration any lips that aren't sufficiently compressed against each other. And that takes strength, and that strength is useless if the lips aren't pushing at each other head-on. They'll just push past each other, and the mouthpiece pressure will have to do what it can to keep 'em together, instead.

Let's just be a little more appreciative and attentive here, when a fellow trumpet player goes way out of his way and takes the time to help you, on a subject that has become the OVERWHELMING area of intense study and discovery for that player for a long time.

Want a real "LOL?"

Here:
"it would [be] impos[s]ible to play with the bottom lip under the top lip"

Now think about that for a minute..

Your words. I won't make fun of them.

I'll just remind you:

..that's precisely where you want the bottom lip.

DIRECTLY.

THAT's the POINT.

HEAD-ON.

NOT tucking or rolling ONE lip, for THAT will cause an IMbalance and loss of compression.

Get it yet?

Hopefully, that "LOL" response of yours (to what was a very detailed description of a HIGHLY prevalent, *specific* problem among many weak trumpet players) is not an indicator of the level of willingness on your part to grasp ideas that are submitted to you by your collegues.

pd




[ This Message was edited by: Perry D'Andrea on 2002-07-06 01:07 ]

[trumpetteacher1]

Perry,

Well, I was disappointed that you deleted your previous post. But the new, expanded version is even better. Very nice!

I think that you WAY overeacted to George's comments, but I'm glad that you did, as you said some things that needed to be said, and went into such detail that it would be almost impossible to misinterpret what you meant.

There are several VERY young posters on this forum. When they make a careless comment, I think that MOST of the time, they are unaware that they have offended anyone.

Of course, worldly folks like you and I never worry about such a thing!

Instead, in our greater wisdom, we spend our time pondering whether or not to order an embouchure book based upon how easy it is for us to order it.

Forgive me, I couldn't resist!

For those who don't understand, please don't ask!

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[trjeam]

[Perry dAndrea]

Of course I way overreacted to George's post.

That's what I do.

Hey, it's that kind of over-attention to this thing which finally blew the whole thing wide open for me, revealing the utter simplicity of it all.

THIS kind of realization only comes to someone who finally physically experiences that incredible feeling of compression for the first time, when those lips are strong enough and poised enough to form this barrier to the airstream (it almost first feels like "Wow, this is STUFFY) but THEN, like a hydraulic "valve", the level of this compression can be increased or decreased, depending on what part of the register you're playing, with practically no change in the emboucher setup whatsoever, from low to high.

All of a sudden, any ideas of ANY special "secrets" that involve some kind of special trick maneuvering of the lips or contortion of the lips or corners of the mouth become completely obsolete.

It's important that someone playing as far off the mark as I was (and this could be a big ole bunch of folks, because I appeared to be a strong player, bouncing double G's off the back of a concert hall, etc) to stay low until it's right. I had the right setup a long time ago but temporarily dismissed it because I couldn't even play a G below middle C that way, so I figured,"That CAN'T be it..". But the G wasn't there because I hadn't strengthened the lip muscles in that configurration yet.

Jeff, I'm going to bite the bullet and put a stamp on an envelope and send a money order for your book, THE BALANCED EMBOUCHER- you have no idea what JUST THE TITLE of your book did to fill in the blanks for me as I scrambled my way through the last thick patch of briars before finally making it to that big beautiful shiny pair of steel tracks that lead straight to true control in trumpet playing. The word BALANCE is the definitive description of what underlies all aspects of a robust emboucher.

Before it always felt like something wasn't configured right or maneuvered right, when I went for higher notes. Now it only feels like a lack of strength a strength which is now building as consistently as moving straight down those tracks.

pd
_________________
"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen

http://perrydandrea.com/doc.wav

[trjeam]

to Jeff:

Today I recieved your book. And read threw it and it was allot of good stuff.

I got allot of questions answered. For example. Do you guys remember how I said i hit a G about High C?? Well what I was doing is what Jeff calls the "Lip Clamp"

And I was amazed at how easy I was playing Double pedal C. Your techniques really work.

Know I also understand the Roll in. With your lip slurs I was able to feel the rolling out to the low C