More Microphone Questions

[4Him]

I've read most of the current and archived posts on microphones and found lots of good advice-- thanks, again, to so many experts on this forum.

I play in a group consisting primarily of brass (can I include our woodwind guy in that batch?) keyboards/rhythm section that backs up 8 vocalists. The band is about 12-15 feet behind the vocalists. Each vocalist and instrument is individually miked.

The first issue I am seeking advice for is that the brass (me especially) is being picked up on the vocalists' mikes. The sound guy thinks he has control over my sound, but I don't think so.... he could turn me off (and just might do that on occasion!) and I'd still be picked up on other mikes. In my mind, this is clearly an issue for live performances and an even bigger issue when they remix for a delayed television broadcast.

My unqualified thought (other than two good ears and a little common sense) is that we need a plexi-shield for the brass, a new configuration with the brass further from the vocalists, and clip on mikes. What do you think? And if I am on the right track, does anyone have some specific direction for me?

Btw-- our technical guy has done wonders in the the few months he has been with us (a God-send!), and I am sure given a little more time these issues will be resolved. I'm a little impatient about getting this resolved-- this weekend, the brass had some great licks that pretty much gave the vocalists some new parts in the back of their hair-- that probably contributed to our mix issues-- and when the broadcast comes, who knows what will come through.

I look forward to learning from the expertise of some of you pros.

Thanks,

Ken

[pfrank]

Well nobody of real expertese has tried answering your questions so I'll give it a try.
First, questions...what is the problem specifically? Have you heard what it sounds like for the audience? (Try taping the band yourself, set a mic up 20-30 feet in front of the stage and use any decent mic, you are checking balance not sound quality) On stage sound is often bad, you have to get used to getting your cues where you can...and you have no idea what it sounds like in front unless you are there!
Are the vocalists just having a hard time hearing themselfs? Are they hyper-sensitive? How much on-stage sound is acoustic, how much monitors? How much of the brass heard in the audience is amplified, and how much is acoustic? (If the acoustic % is high, them plexiglass sound shields would not be good)
You must play on some bloody huge stage for the vocalists to be 15-20 feet in front of you. If the stage is so big, why don't you just reorganize the positions better? Lastly, If you are dealing with somebody (authority type)who "has all the answers," you might have to but-out, keep your own counsel, and just smile as you pick up your pay check.

[4Him]

Thanks, PFrank, for your response. Judging by the number of questions you had to ask me, I must have been as clear as mud in my post.

Issue is, for both live and recorded, I want the guy on the board to be able to pull me and others in and bring us out when he needs to. We have ample monitors and have harrassed the guy on the board enough that we are now getting what we need most of the time. The venue is a 2500 seat auditorium-- what people are hearing in the audience is from speakers rather than acoustic.

You are absolutely right--- the "expert" doesn't need or want my advise, but I might have some pull to get us wired differently if that is what we need to do. So, I guess what I am looking for is, what ideas can I plant that will enable him to isolate each of in the band as much as possible so that he can keep us balanced in the auditorium and on disk. Remember, the band is being picked up (especially lead trumpet) by other microphones.

Maybe I need to let it go and just enjoy the experience-- BUT, I'd enjoy it more if I could help the group get to another level of sound in the room.

Thanks,

Ken

[pfrank]

You want the sound person to have MORE control? That's a first... I ALWAYS send a pre-equalized signal with the highs rolled off and I have a mic level input control so that I can boost or cut from onstage...but that's with one or two horns in my bands, not a whole section and many singers.
Anyway, to lessen leakage, the plexiglass sound baffels that attach to the mic on a stand are a very good way to start.

I wonder though, WHY would you want the sound man to take you out of the mix? Do you mean the performance mix or the on-stage mix? Think of it as being another type of acoustic situation: the dynamics should be in the music already. Get a good acoustic sound FIRST. If there were no amplification, would these problems exist?

In recording, the dynamics can be monitored in the mixdown. Everything should be as natural as possible so that your attention is on your performance. A soundperson twiddling knobs and sliders is never as musical as performance dynamics.

Micing for live perf. is a different animal than recording. For example: To record a horn section you'd use a MUCH better mic than for live (like $100 vs $1000) and mic 3-4 feet away for individual horns, 10-20 feet away if one mic for the whole section (hopfully in a good acoustic space) while live micing is as close as you can without distorting the mic. Like 5 inches.

Maybe you are facing problem no. 1 in amplified live sound: too loud on-stage amplified sound mix. Onstage sound should be as low as possible: just enough that you can hear yourself over the drummer. Especially when dealing with as large a group...it can sound like a mess with so many sources.

If leakage is inevitable, then USE IT. A good brass section sound is mainly from the acoustic blending of all the horns, that 'crunch' of frequencies that the harmonies create. Y'know, like the Beatles vocal sound- that was recorded on 1 mic, not each individually and then mixed. (Same with older and newer orchestral recordings)

The only advantage of clip-on mics is your own mobility. Everyone would have wires dangling from the bell going to a belt or pocket preamp, then lines to the system. Spaghetti. For the sake of simplicity and economy, a mic on a stand is the best bet, if something Can go wrong onstage, it will. A good clip-on mic costs more that a good regular mic, and I would only use one if I could control the complexities myself.

For the broadcast of a performance of a group like yours (large) the ideal thing to do would be to get a good acoustic signal from stereo mics. If possible, for the singers (except for the lead if there is one) and another stereo mix for the instruments and forget about the individual mixing. Justa like they usta do. If your sound person hasen't tried everything else and abandoned it yet, so that the acoustic idea seemes interesting to him/her, you have no chance of convincing him to go this way. Technology, like government, seems to be self perpetuating...

Probably the best thing to do is get an onstage monitor mix everybody can live with and just perform. Most high level systems have more than 1 monitor mix possible; some have one for each monitor! If there are vocalists who feel like you are parting their hair, (at 15 feet away that's LOUD, more likely they just aren't used to it) perhaps the trumpet can be taken out of their monitor. Using acoustic baffels, you won't need so much trumpet in the monitors.

I hope this helps. I'm not sure if I hit it or not.

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2002-07-10 10:42 ]

[_Don Herman]

Not sure where to go with this... In mixed instrumental/vocal groups, I usually try to put the instruments to the side and behind the vocals, who are upfront and center stage. This is to minimize leakage; to enhance the direct vocal sound; and, because the audience typically relates to the singers, not the instruments. The vocals usually lead the show in these situations, not the band.

Yeah, there's always some leakage, you just deal with it. Not sure anything would cut it 100%, nor do I feel there's a real need...

I'm coming in late, and late at night, on this so maybe I ain't covering what you're asking -- others did a purty good job, I reckon, and my sound days (save for my church) are years behind me.

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-07-15 10:36 ]

[4Him]

Thanks for your suggests and help, guys. What both of you have said will be helpful. Today, however, was a sound nightmare. I guess it does not take a rocket scientist to know that if you have a brass section, each instrument miked, behind a group of 8 miked vocalists, the sound guy is not going to be able to isolate his vocalists from the brass. SO.... we've all agreed to a stage reconfiguration. I suppose with the new set-up we will run into new problems, but we will deal with them as they come up.

Thanks again,

Ken

[Walston]

You might try your nearest sound shop for a noise gate. This device will allow you to set a threshold/level that only the volume or input of the vocalist will trigger and hopefully in your case the volume of brass will not. I have used these on drummers for tom tom consistancy and cleaning up the drum mix. Just a suggestion.