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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While watching those CNN/Fox news shows the other night, I wished that (since this is The Trumpet "Herald") that there was a forum to discuss the hard line issues, to ask the questions no one else has the nerve to. To cut throught the B.S and get Down & Dirty.

I'd be happy to be the moderator and pose questions that posters feed me that they they otherwise may be too fearful to ask themselves.
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 6648
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I too love the Fox new "Hardball" shows. Fox loves 'em too . . . for people flock to these shows and they can get a lot for their adds.

If you start a "Hardball" forum maybe you could line up some advertisers too . . . since all us TH forum viewers seem to view the flaming posts a lot more than the other stuff . . . human nature I guess!

However, the TH moderator Todd has worked very hard to make sure the Herald forum didn't turn into an all out pissin' match. Actually, as much as I like a heated, respectful dialogue, I think Todd is right to keep things "friendly."

Anyone posting long enough has probably been drawn into a viscious debate where they've either been insulted and hurt by others . . . or done it to someone else. I've probably been on both side before and now try not to get too worked up. Still, it sometimes hurts.

I have several "cyber-trumpet friends" who no longer post or visit the TH forums after being "nuked" after posting an innocent post. Recently we lost a private forum moderator who had "had enough." Life's too short to take a bunch of grief when you spend hours a week/month trying to help others!!!

IF . . . you succeed in starting a "hot" forum PLEASE require that NO ONE can post UNLESS they list their REAL NAME, REAL E-MAIL ADDRESS, and REAL LOCATION. This needs to be a non-negotiable rule. With REAL e-mail addresses we can contact individuals too that we have a "problem" with and resolve it fairly without having to air out dirty laundry in front of the "world."

When someone isn't willing to give this information I refuse to respect their posts, and most of the "trouble" comes from these anonomous "flamers." Many of us "regulars" have even figured out amongst ourselves who these "flamers" are . . . for some people use their real name when posting usually and then hide behind a fake I.D. to flame. Their writing charecteristics and style always give them away--including the cat who recently bailed as a private forum moderator.

Also, when one posts their REAL information people can "check 'em out" with their cyber-trumpet buddies in that person's area to see if the cat has "chops" and experience or not. If someone is "for real" they have nothing to hide.

I've also come to believe that people are more "civil" when they use their real name instead of hide behind a fake identity. Frankly, we'd all probably get along marvelously if we debated each other in the same room. Cyber debates bring out the kind of behavior sometimes that also happens behind the wheel of a car . . . when really nice people suddenly become real A_ _ H_ _ _ S!

I guess you can see that I'm not sure this is a good idea . . . but then again . . . bashing sells. Just count me out of those 167 post, hair-splitting "pissin' matches"--my bladder ain't big enough! I'm gonna try to stay kind and positive--still . . . an interesting suggestion and I'm glad you've put it on the table for discussion. Thanks!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner
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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah people will either love this idea or hate it.
Clearly my "suggestion" is to create a separate forum to air out any (unrelated to the topic) yet trumpet related issues that really shoudnt be tying up the highly educational discussions going on.
People know what their clicking on to. Read it or go on.

A poop filter if you will
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Wtrager
Regular Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 86
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about private e-mail? I pretty much share Tom's view. I've had my share of these discussions, and there's always someone who takes a civil but somewhat heated discussion, and turns it into an all out character assault. I feel that's very unfortunate, because in the proccess someone gets hurt, and there are no educational gains to be had by anyone.
Sincerely
Wayne
http://communities.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk/_whatsnew.msnw
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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wtrager!

Nice website! Know any good teachers in NY that think the way you do? Your thoughts about playing and hardball make good sense to me.

I am merely sugesting a forum where someone can discuss a topic with no fear of being flamed..cause it should be expected if you are here.

People like to read heated discussions..like it or not. When you attack someone personally; thats not a discussion

There are several topics I would post there that are just not appropriate for other forum areas. Boy, would I like to give you some examples.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the recent forum on the new Prana mouthpiece, someone suggested that there should be a separate forum for high-school students after a particularly egregious personal attack by one of the "younger" posters. While that might be a possibility, it would seem that the moderator should take responsibility and remove those who obviously have no manners, common sense, or respect for anyone else.

The debating forum is interesting, but few regular posters seem to be able to make a distinction between opinion and verifiable fact. If I, or anyone else, believe that a certain brand, theory, or individual "sucks" that is only my opinion, based on my preconcieved notions or, my direct experience. It is not a fact. To present it as such, is a rudimentary logical fallacy that is so obvious that only someone with no background in logical thinking would entertain.

Is it me, or does there seem to be a universal lack of logical thought that exemplifies the current products of the educational system? Unfortunately, while this may fly in our "self image" education system, the real world isn't so permissive, or forgiving.

Therefore, bad manners and personal attacks should be a subject of an initial warning, and if the pattern continues, the rest of us should be spared by removing the offender. Perhaps those removed will find the Springer show a more fitting venue for their self-expression.
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RJ
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

----------------------------------------
Quote--------"The debating forum is interesting, but few regular posters seem to be able to make a distinction between opinion and verifiable fact. If I, or anyone else, believe that a certain brand, theory, or individual "sucks" that is only my opinion, based on my preconcieved notions or, my direct experience. It is not a fact. To present it as such, is a rudimentary logical fallacy that is so obvious that only someone with no background in logical thinking would entertain."
------------------------------------

I'm having trouble understanding what constitutes a 'fact' concerning that forum.

From the dictionary-----
fact- 1. A thing done; deed. 2. That which has actual existence; an event. 3. The quality of being actual; actuality 4. The statement of a thingdone or existing;loosely, the thing supposed to be done or to exist. 5. Law, Any of the circumstances or matters of a case as alleged; also, that which is of actual occurence; reality as an event.

It seems to me for the new forum to be truly effective there needs to be a very clear difinition of what a fact is regarding trumpet because alot of what I consider facts about the way I play and approach music may not be fact for someone else. Music and the minute physical and mental and soul/spirit/whatever you choose to describe it with aspects of music making and trumpet playing are very very personal 'facts'. I'm curious to see if the forum will actually work if each person cannot submit what they feel is an "absolute fact" from what they have experienced by doing, testing, and proving to themselves...
RJ

ps- I think all posts should be left, to do anything else would infringe on free speech. Hopefully those posters that flame or attack will eventually learn from the examples of polite, educated, mature posters that lead by their example of freindly discussion. I love a good educated, heated discussion amongst friends. If everyone is open-minded a lot can be learned by all.
I bet alot of us were young, 'misunderstood', 'angst ridden', and cock-sure of ourselves at some point. and we said things that we now shake our heads at- I know I did, and probably still do at times. But most of us also had great role models from somewhere that helped us grow and mature. I have my doubts about these affects as they travel over the internet, but who knows, maybe it does have a big impression on younger people, especially since they grew up with email and internet as being normal everyday stuff...
Just some thoughts..




[ This Message was edited by: rj on 2002-07-17 14:32 ]
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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bach:

A Jerry Springer like discussion is not what I had in mind.

The system administarator should not allow offenders(WHO CAN NOT POST IN A CIVIL MANNER) to continue on TH. Hope I never earn such a distinction.

I have very mixed feelings about young people on TH and am hesistant to express my thoughts. I'm happy to help a young person out however, I do wish there was a TH for adults only. I was bashed by some high school student recently who must be home for summer vacation and has alot of time to post.
This kid appointed himself "Judge and jury" regarding some of my posts. (immature, what nerve! Like to smack his ignorant face!). He's now on my sh***t list.

I think the debating forum will ultimately be contributed to by (for the most part) the "few" highly knowledgeable "professors of playing" here. Suppose thats the way it should be.

I am an experienced hard working player(probably have more gigs than them), yet since I can't quote text from the many books these guys seem to own(and study) there does not seem to be place for me to discuss certain topics.
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rj,

Don't give up on it so easily. It's hardly out of the gate! Things are changing over there and there is a sincere effort by the moderators to make it a meaningful forum. Informed opinions are welcome and definitions are being sought. Those are two new guidelines that grew out of posts that came under criticism. And this is only the third day.

Suggestions are encouraged either privately or on the forum. If you think the rules are unclear or unfair, maybe we should debate about the rules.
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RJ
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not giving up

It's made me think a lot about what exactly is a fact when I play and what is just a visuaization or my imagination, -and what that means to playing. deep stuff, I'll keep reading and posting.
RJ


[ This Message was edited by: RJ on 2002-07-17 14:40 ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree that the basis of any discussion that purports to be technical should start with a definition of the terms to be used, as well as an agreed upon structure or procedure. Without this approach, the results are usually not much more than chaos.

An example of the difference between fact and opinion could be an opening statement that “Bach mouthpieces are very inconsistent in terms of their "feel" and the inside diameters vary more than brand x. That’s my opinion-it is not a fact. If we use that statement as a hypothesis and then say, “ We tested the inside diameters of 100 Bach mouthpieces of current manufacture using a xyz micrometer and found that the average deviation from Bach’s stated dimensions was .0004. We have a fact, based on the test results we obtained.

If we want to go the next step we should probably run similar tests on three or four other brands and compare the range of deviations for each one based on their stated diameters. While it is easy to argue that inside diameter is only one factor in terms of feel, based on our original premise we have proven one aspect. If anyone cares, the next step could be measuring rim, cup volume, or whatever. The bottom line is, with verifiable results, (fact); there isn’t room for pointless discussion about “How I feel about it”.

The idea that opinion should carry as much weight as factual material seems stupid. If you are building a bridge, your opinion on the size of the steel girders necessary to hold the thing up is not going to make as much sense as some well conceived research. In fact, without a fact or two the whole damn thing will probably collapse just like a poorly reasoned argument.

Finally, while I would be hard pressed to ever postulate that age, experience, and education should be the major criteria for acceptance in terms of viewpoints. However, I certainly have a tough time accepting that the opinion of a high school kid who has played for 3 or 4 years in a band, can’t spell, and doesn’t know the rudiments of English grammar, should carry the same weight as an educated professional who has experience across a wide spectrum of musical venues. It just doesn’t cut it for me.

Let's try to be civil; let us try to be logical and understand the difference between fact and opinion, and if none of this works, let us hope the moderator can remove the rude airheads from the forum so it isn't spoiled for the rest of us. I rest my case.
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Nicholas Dyson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said, Bachagain. I think thinking like that will prevail in the long run. Just like Charly said, it's only the 3rd day. Although I believe in being intuitive and readily 'engaged' in my learning process, (which can SOMETIMES lead to over thinking), people will get the hang of keeping the purely opinion posts where they fit better - ie. every place but in the debate forum. I'm looking forward to watching (perhaps participating, if I can add something) to lots of good debates there. Shouldn't be long now...

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Nick Dyson
Seattle, Washington

[ This Message was edited by: Nicholas Dyson on 2002-07-17 18:32 ]
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jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love watching hardball shows because I get to watch proven authorities debate various topics.

I appreciate the new debate forum because I get to read posts from proven authorities debating various topics.

See any simularities? Am I wrong? Correct me!!!!
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