Charles and Pat, got another one for ya...

[RJ]

Hi guys,
If I remember right both of you have mentioned that you were studying with Carmen when you where having some problems with chops. How old were you guys at this point?
I'm curious because I'm at a point where I'm done with school, I'm 27, gigging and teaching some lessons and doing all right with it- but, with a renewed desire to reach another level in my playing I've been searching the last year or two now for a way to get my chops in a good balanced space. I always seem to come up with what I need on a gig, but as far as having the same steady growth I had while in school... well, I'm just not finding it. It's not a matter of time, I have plenty.
I'm trying to stick to a regular routine but twice now I've gotten to the fourth week of the Caruso routine and my chops crap out on me. So I took a couple days off and started again, and they feel crappy again.--
I know this is hard to address in a forum like this, it's more of a person-to-person lesson thing.

Basically it boils down to this-- I've had very positive success with Caruso in the past, and right now aside from maintaining a balanced foundation I'm solely focusing on improvisation.--but latley it's not working, and since this is how I'm making most of my bread now I'm a bit distressed by it. Did you have this experience? Any words of wisdom are appreciated. Do you think I should put it down for a while, modify it, or keep on trucking through?
Thanks again,
RJ

[_bugleboy]

Rj,

Going to Carmine in 70s and seeing him every other week was as important for me as the lesson assignments and practicing them. He was there to reassure, allay the doubts and generally keep the spirits up in a student who had crashed and burned. He was a rock of confidence and you could feel that here was someone you could totally trust to help you. Someone who had seen your problem a thousand times and was going about the business of getting you back up and playing. He was not concerned in the least that the student would not improve and succeed by following his coaching.

You may not have quite the same level of decomposition perhaps, but you still want to get better and get to a level that you haven't seen before. You'd like to be a top pro. Not being able to see what you're doing makes it unrealistic to try and analyze how you're doing or what you could do better. A couple of things maybe can be addressed.

Rj: I've been searching the last year or two now for a way to get my chops in a good balanced space. I always seem to come up with what I need on a gig, but as far as having the same steady growth I had while in school...

CR: Are you playing as well now as you were when you were in school?

Rj: I'm trying to stick to a regular routine but twice now I've gotten to the fourth week of the Caruso routine and my chops crap out on me.

CR: By "crap out" I assume you mean you just couldn't play any further. But how far did you get? It is presupposed that you will crap out at some point doing the intervals, so I'm not sure why this is bothering you. It doesn't matter how far you get as long as you are following the Four Rules. Also, don't measure your progress by how well you do the Caruso stuff. If you do them for the rest of your life, they aren't necessarily going to sound very good. They might start to sound decent, but they don't have to. The sound you get doing Caruso is not the yardstick to use for whether you are doing them correctly or not or for whether you are gaining results from them.

The next thing, very important, is that you take your mind off thinking about your lips, corners, abs, tongue, smile, pucker, etc. Keep your elbows away from your body and blow. I very much recommend blowing on the leadpipe first thing of the day. Just play that low E or F that comes out and play it for a couple of minutes. Now go to the Six Notes and do your Caruso stuff with no agenda except to follow the Four Rules and COUNT. Subdivide 16s and move right in time after the 16th, 1 - ee - and - ah - 2 - ee - and - ah (MOVE) - 3 - EE - AND, ETC. Everything is going to develop automatically, but in its own good time. If you're getting to the E to F just above the tuning note on the first blow, on the Regular Seconds, then you are doing fine.

Rj: I've had very positive success with Caruso in the past,

CR: How far in the past are you talking about?

Rj: .......and right now aside from maintaining a balanced foundation ...........

CR: What do you mean, "maintaining a balanced foundation?" Is this something that you are intentionally imposing on your embouchure? Not sure what that means.

Rj: I'm solely focusing on improvisation.--but lately it's not working,

CR: What's not working, maintaining the balanced foundation or the improvisation? How many weeks has it been so far since you started doing the Caruso?

I'll wait for your answers before offering any changes in your routine. Do you have the Schlossberg book?

Regards,

Charly

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-07-20 01:13 ]

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-07-20 01:15 ]

[RJ]

CR: You may not have quite the same level of decomposition perhaps, but you still want to get better and get to a level that you haven't seen before. You'd like to be a top pro.

RJ: YES!
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CR: Not being able to see what you're doing makes it unrealistic to try and analyze how you're doing or what you could do better.

RJ: Understood, I thought it was at least worth a try describing over the net since you guys know what your talking about, maybe it will help me figure out something I could be doing better.
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CR: Are you playing as well now as you were when you were in school?

RJ: I don't think so, at least not with as much of a consistent growth to it. I definitly have not progressed as much in the last 2 years out of school as I did over that much of a period while in school.
I know part of this is because after school I really wasn't sure what I wanted to focus on, and while in school I had a specific course of study to follow. After a lot of personal reflection on what I really want to do musically I have a renewed personal "course of study"- I want to focus on improvising. Beyond that I want to have the kind of chops I had while in school- able to play in wind ensemble, orchestra, brass quintet, pit orchestra, or something similar when called. I'm really not that far off from where I used to be, I just need more upwards growth and consistency.
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CR: By "crap out" I assume you mean you just couldn't play any further. But how far did you get? It is presupposed that you will crap out at some point doing the intervals, so I'm not sure why this is bothering you. It doesn't matter how far you get as long as you are following the Four Rules. Also, don't measure your progress by how well you do the Caruso stuff. If you do them for the rest of your life, they aren't necessarily going to sound very good. They might start to sound decent, but they don't have to. The sound you get doing Caruso is not the yardstick to use for whether you are doing them correctly or not or for whether you are gaining results from them.

RJ: Sorry, crap out's not such a great description of the situation. Let me try again...
I understand playing the routine untill you can't go any further, and that's what I've been doing. When I said crap out what I should have said is I've played through the routine upto the 4th week twice. By the time I got to the 4th week the first time I was using more pressure, and lossing range, tone, and endurance. I went on vacation for a week after this and came back and decided to go angain from week 1. Now, currently in week 4, take 2, I am at the same point. To much pressure, and this is carrying over into all non-Caruso playing.
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Rj: I've had very positive success with Caruso in the past,

CR: How far in the past are you talking about?

RJ: 2 years ago. I was doing 6 notes, seconds, and some bends from a sheet a former teacher gave me. Not the way it's been described here though. I was takng the horn off my face between notes, and not focusing on the foot as much. Still, this did help my range and endurance and when I noticed the improvements I went overboard with it and, -combined with some horribly loud rock gigs at the time, and poor judgement on my part,-- I blew my chops out. They hurt so bad I had to stop playing for two weeks all together and then I slowly built them back up. But up till now, as I said earlier, I didn't have any specific direction musically so real progress and growth was replaced with grabing things here and there to work on for short periods of time- which of course won't lead to consistency, at least not for myself.

When I think about it myself-- my school years where a definite climb upwards, with the occasional plateau but always with a focus on positive upward movment and growth. Then the last couple years have been a bit of a sink down and lot of lateral drift. Just back and forth over the same basic area.

I want very much to get back to that upwards climb.
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Rj: .......and right now aside from maintaining a balanced foundation ...........

CR: What do you mean, "maintaining a balanced foundation?" Is this something that you are intentionally imposing on your embouchure? Not sure what that means.

RJ: Balanced Foundation- also proably not the best choice of words, sorry again.
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Rj: I'm solely focusing on improvisation.--but lately it's not working,

CR: What's not working, maintaining the balanced foundation or the improvisation?

RJ: man, I'm on a roll, sorry...
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Let me try again, hope this is more clear....

My main desire at present is to focus on improvisation. In doing so I'm following a lot of PH's suggestions-- I'm listening, transcribing, and working on tunes everyday. I'm also working on theory and ear training during breaks. I've been trying to work scale/chord work into parts of my trumpet routine.

Which brings me to what I ment by "maintaining a balanced foundation". What I should have said is something more like-- Aside from focusing on improvisation, I am trying to build a routine that will not simply maintain chops, but one that will promote growth in all around trumpeting. Because I am confident with a positive routine I can not only just have the chops I had, but have even better-ever growing playing ability in those styles I'm all ready comfortable with. I firmly believe where there's a will there's a way.
I have the will, but I'm still trying to find the way.
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--(CR: What's not working, maintaining the balanced foundation or the improvisation?)--

Even though I'm having some trouble with it now, I think the Caruso Routine followed by a good techniques routine is the way to go.


I have to get going. This is real long, but hopefully more clear. I'll check later, thanks for the help I know this isn't the easiest topic to cover like this.
RJ


[ This Message was edited by: rj on 2002-07-20 14:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: rj on 2002-07-20 14:14 ]

[PH]

When I went to Carmine in the middle '70s I was a 21 year-old guy with an undergraduate music ed. degree who knew a lot of tunes, all the hip licks of the day, really understood jazz theory/harmony, and I was a decent enough jazz piano player that I could comp for singers and other horn players well enough to gig on piano when I didn't get trumpet calls.

The problem was that I had some major problems with the trumpet. I didn't dig my tone. My useable range topped out at hi C. Anything above the staff was extremely sharp. Anything below the staff was flat. I didn't have enough endurance to play 3rd trumpet on a 4-hour gig.

I'd get called for gigs because I was a decent and knowledgable jazz player. I wouldn't get called back because I played out of tune with a crappy little sound and I didn't have enough chops left to play the head on Blue Bossa by the 3rd set.

I was seriously thinking of resigning myself to a career as a mediocre pianist and shifting my focus to arranging. I gave myself an ultimatum: 18 months of doing Carmine's thing everyday and we'll see if I continue this trumpet thing. I got a lesson with CC each month and called him once a week in between if I had questions (I was living in the midwest). Obviously it worked well enough that I remained a trumpet player. Two years later I moved to New York so I could explore that jazz scene, but also so I could see Carmine 2 or 3 times a month. That went on for the next 2 years. It was a great experience.

I have enormous debts to so many of my other teachers, but Carmine and his calisthenics entered my life at a crucial time. It is no exaggration to say that the stuff in MCFB kept me a trumpet player and therefore is responsible for my entire career.

[quote]
On 2002-07-20 10:44, RJ wrote:

RJ: ...I definitly have not progressed as much in the last 2 years out of school as I did over that much of a period while in school.

...I want to have the kind of chops I had while in school- able to play in wind ensemble, orchestra, brass quintet, pit orchestra, or something similar when called. I'm really not that far off from where I used to be, I just need more upwards growth and consistency.

PH: I suspect that you need to be in those kinds of playing situations again in order to have those kinds of chops. Calisthenics are very helpful, but your skills are only useful if you also apply them to musical situations. In school people often bitch about having to go to band rehearsal. Now you might need to find a community group like that, or a brass quintet, or a polka band, or a pit orchestra for community theater. If you can't play music with people you have to find ways to simulate that in the practice room.

_____________________________

RJ: Sorry, crap out's not such a great description of the situation. Let me try again...
I understand playing the routine untill you can't go any further, and that's what I've been doing. When I said crap out what I should have said is I've played through the routine upto the 4th week twice. By the time I got to the 4th week the first time I was using more pressure, and lossing range, tone, and endurance. I went on vacation for a week after this and came back and decided to go angain from week 1. Now, currently in week 4, take 2, I am at the same point. To much pressure, and this is carrying over into all non-Caruso playing.

PH: Pressure is not an issue to a Caruso student. Pressure is one strategy people use to change notes and make the trumpet work. Other strategies include things like pivot, jaw-jutting, lateral lip slides, etc. None of these things are bad. If you overdo ANY aspect of playing it causes an imbalance and other aspects of your body must compensate. Mouthpiece pressure is usually a symptom of such imbalance and is not something that a Caruso student freaks out about. Doing the calisthenics in the correct fashion along with a good diet of other musical playing, articulation exercises, etc. will eventually bring your playing into balance and excess mouthpiece pressure will gradually vanish along with all of your other symptoms of imbalance. The most important thing is to do the calisthenics regularly and follow the four rules (especially the focus on timing and the steady blow). Ignore the results during the exercises and expect great things to gradually materialize in your other non-calisthenic playing.

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Rj: .......and right now aside from maintaining a balanced foundation ...........

CR: What do you mean, "maintaining a balanced foundation?" Is this something that you are intentionally imposing on your embouchure? Not sure what that means.

RJ: Balanced Foundation- also proably not the best choice of words, sorry again.

PH: I still don't know what you mean by a "balanced foundation".
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RJ: My main desire at present is to focus on improvisation. In doing so I'm following a lot of PH's suggestions-- I'm listening, transcribing, and working on tunes everyday. I'm also working on theory and ear training during breaks. I've been trying to work scale/chord work into parts of my trumpet routine.

Which brings me to what I ment by "maintaining a balanced foundation". What I should have said is something more like-- Aside from focusing on improvisation, I am trying to build a routine that will not simply maintain chops, but one that will promote growth in all around trumpeting. Because I am confident with a positive routine I can not only just have the chops I had, but have even better-ever growing playing ability in those styles I'm all ready comfortable with. I firmly believe where there's a will there's a way.
I have the will, but I'm still trying to find the way.
Even though I'm having some trouble with it now, I think the Caruso Routine followed by a good techniques routine is the way to go.

PH: If you are doing the Caruso routine I have found that you should be able to keep your other technical skills up pretty well with some work on single and multiple tonguing from a book like Arban, and work on musical etudes that incorporate a variety of style, dynamics, articulation, etc. You can't beat Charlier if you are going to obsess on one great source for etudes.

Beyond that you could easily focus on your improvisation studies.

Good Luck!

p.s. Where do you live?

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-07-20 14:57 ]

[RJ]

Thanks PH,

So what I'm thinking is that it is probably partially about what I'm doing after the Caruso Routine. Let me try to better explain were I think I got the concept of a 'balanced foundation'.

When I was in high school I went to summer jazz camps and studied with Dominic Spera a little and I picked up his books. When he talks about sound development in them he mentions that "Like a meal, a young player's practice menu during a period of normal, sensible performing demands should be balanced- a healthful comination of long setting, slurs, pedal tones, tonguing, scales, arpeggios and songs." This is what, in my mind, I see as a 'balanced foundation' for trumpet playing.

I hope that explains were I'm coming from better. I'm sorry I'm having trouble explaining myself. You guys are great for taking the time to answer my questions.

I live in NYC.

[PH]

I agree with Dominic in every way!

As you probably know, he was one of my mentors and we both studied extensively with Mr. Adam as well as Carmine.

Dominic is 100% right when he says, "Like a meal, a young player's practice menu during a period of normal, sensible performing demands should be balanced- a healthful combination of long setting, slurs, pedal tones, tonguing, scales, arpeggios and songs."

When you do the Caruso calisthenics you are taking care of the long setting (obviously). As you progress and work your way through the lessons you will also cover the pedal tones & slurs. Carmine also took me through scales, arpeggios, and tonguing-mostly in work from the Baermann book.

As I listen to your description of your playing I would suggest that, in addition to the Caruso studies, you do some Clarke studies every day, tonguing from Arban, and some Charlier. If you did 15-20 minutes on each of these things I suspect that you could move on to the improv study and find that your trumpet playing continues to grow.

Since you live in NYC, I suggest that you contact Laurie Frink and/or John McNeil. McNeil is one of the truly great improvisation teachers as well as a Carmine student. I have never had an experience with McNeil that wasn't memorable. Laurie is one of the current masters (mistress sounds wrong) of the Caruso method.

If you want their contact info you can send me a private message. Even one or two lessons could straighten you right out. Someone knowledgableneeds to see and hear you to be certain how you should proceed.

[_bugleboy]

Rj,

Sorry, don't have time to be verbose this time. If you're in New York you could also check out Sam Burtis, a former trombone student of Carmine. Very sharp.

Ok, I see what you meant by balanced foundation. Words like "balanced" get so much use in reference to embouchure, but I see that's not how you're using the word.

One thing that did strike me, though, is that you said 2 years ago you practiced Caruso exercises.

" 2 years ago. I was doing 6 notes, seconds, and some bends from a sheet a former teacher gave me. Not the way it's been described here though. I was takng the horn off my face between notes, and not focusing on the foot as much."

Doing the exercises this way is bound to allow you to move higher in the intervals, because you are resetting with each interval and no one setting has to make the effort over the full exercise. So my question is are you trying to equal the success you had with the Caruso studies then (how high you could get) with the correct way that you are doing the exercises now? IF this is the case then I wonder if you are introducing manipulations to try to achieve this same success. Again, very tough to analyze blind. Laurie Frink or Sam Burtis would see it immediately and would be worth taking some lessons from.

Do the leadpipe long tones first thing of the day. But don't set your embouchure in any specific way. Just kind of put the mouthpiece on your lips (slightly touching is probably best but you could have them opened slightly, just be pretty relaxed) and let the air ease on through. You should get a sound. Do long tones for several minutes this way. This is a great way to develop the "taste." It will take months, but along with the other things on the menu, they will all be working to get your embouchure and air working efficiently.

[RJ]

CR:Do you have the Schlossberg book?---
Yes
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CR:So my question is are you trying to equal the success you had with the Caruso studies then (how high you could get) with the correct way that you are doing the exercises now? IF this is the case then I wonder if you are introducing manipulations to try to achieve this same success. Again, very tough to analyze blind.

RJ: hmm, I hadn't thought about it conciously, but it is a possibility.
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Thanks guys, RJ

[RJ]

PH, I'm not sure if you got the message I sent you. All I said was I'm going to give Laurie Frink a call this week, and that I've tried to track down McNeil's info but didn't have any luck. It'd be great to take a lesson(s) with him, I really like his book I picked up.
Thanks again,
By the way- I started doing the things you and Charles suggested and I'm all ready feeling and hearing a difference. I think it was the whole overall approach. Caruso + 15 min. (for each 'subject') of good, focused practice spent on Clarke's, Arban, and Charlier is defineltly going to keep things going.
Can't thank you enough,
RJ