• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Hi, John



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Claude Gordon
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2002 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you happen to have a copy of the scan for the CG Personal Back Bore?

Or should I get it from Jim New?

Thanks

Lowell Stevenson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Quadruple C
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-20 23:14 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there Lowell!

No, I don't have a scan of it, so yes, you'll have to get it from Jim.

Love the horn! Playing on it everyday.

All for now,

John

P.S. For everybody else, the "horn" I refer to is the 30 year old Burbank Benge Large Bore I bought from Lowell last year. He bought it new from the Burbank factory through his teacher (Claude Gordon). Back then, Benges were only made at a rate of about 6-8 horns a week, and only sold through Professional Players. Ah, the good old days!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Emb_Enh
Veteran Member


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John...on my travels on the net..I sometimes see a CG horn for sale..is it a help to post it up here in the CG forum for you guys?

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD


[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2002 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John I will Call Jim New to get it. I knew that you had done some redesigning of Claudes Cup and thought that you might have the Back Bore too. Not a problem.

Glad you like the horn, and are enjoying it.
Yea the good old days for sure.

Last Saturday, when it was 95 degrees here, I played a Gig with a German Polka Band, outside!
Good thing we didn't have to play more than 2 hours. Anyway the other Trumpet player, who in the Second hour keep passing me the Lead parts cause his chops were dead, was playing a King 2070-SP, he let me play it and I was very much impressed with it. a VERY responsive horn, He thought it was DARK, with all the heavy valves caps he had on it, but when I played it and put some AIR to it, it suddenly became Bright and edgie. For sure I don't need another horn, but I was so impressed with the playablity of it I am thinking about buying one.
Have you heard anything about this horn?
I see another Forum about it and understand I am not the only one that was impressed.

Best of Wishes,

Lowell Stevenson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2002 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Rodney:

Yes, that would be great! But first, buy one for yourself. Seriously, they are great horns.

Thanks for the thought,

John



To Lowell:

I'm not familiar with the King trumpets. Two hours of Polka music out in the sun - yech! The polka type bands are pretty much all in Southern Germany here. Not so much of that up in the North. But still some - the Beergartens in the summer will have some.

Don't know what to do about this Benge I bought from you. It's a real dilema - I wanted to get it Gold-Plated, but now that I find that it plays and feels so nice, I don't want to take a chance by changing anything!

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if it feel really good and you like the way it plays DONOT have it done, replating will change the playing charateristics. That is for sure.
and Gold plating will take some of the edge off. Don't do it.

Recently I bought a F. Besson Meha, I have always wanted to see what it plays like because Claude played one, after Gozzo, came to LA, and sounded so well. Gozzo played a Modified Bach 7C, and I have wondered what Bert Herrick did to it to modifiy it. Now I know the answer to both question. Want to know?

Lowell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-07-10 10:05, Lowell wrote:
Well if it feel really good and you like the way it plays DONOT have it done, replating will change the playing charateristics. That is for sure.
and Gold plating will take some of the edge off. Don't do it.

Recently I bought a F. Besson Meha, I have always wanted to see what it plays like because Claude played one, after Gozzo, came to LA, and sounded so well. Gozzo played a Modified Bach 7C, and I have wondered what Bert Herrick did to it to modifiy it. Now I know the answer to both question. Want to know?

Lowell


Of course I want to know! By the way, I read that Gozzo (along with Forrest Buchtel) were involved in the Development of the Schilke 14A4A, so I'm curious about Gozzo's personal mouthpiece (I've also heard he played a modified 7C but never knew exactly what the modifications were).

Lastly, on the changing the characteristics side of things: I think that Gold Plating would actually make the horn brighter, not darker. I base this opinion on the study Schilke did concerning the 3 different types of finishes used on trumpets and their accoustical effects. Here's what he wrote:

Excerpt from:

"The Physics of Inner Brass
and the Acoustical Effects of
Various Materials and Their Treatment"

By Renold O. Schilke

"One large point of controversy has always
existed between those who prefer a lacquered
horn and those who prefer plated horns,
either silver or gold, or a third group who prefer
their instruments in plain brass without
any protective coating whatsoever. Let me
give you my findings on the three different
finishes of instruments. First, I tried to find
myself three instruments that played
absolutely identically. One, I silverplated, one
I had a very good lacquer job put on and a
third I left in brass. Now recall that all three
instruments played identically the same in
brass, or as close as it is possible to get. I
had various players from the Symphony
working with me as well as other professional
trumpet players in Chicago and they agreed
unanimously on the results. The findings were
that plating does not affect the playing
qualities of brass instruments. That is, the
plated instrument and the plain brass
instrument played identically. The lacquered
instrument, however, seemed to be changed
considerably. This instrument, which originally
had played the same as the other two, now
had a very much impaired tonal quality and
the over-all pitch was changed.

To explain these findings as to why the silver
and brass instruments played alike and the
lacquered instrument did not, let me give you
some figures. The silver plating on a brass
instrument is only one-half of a thousandth
inch thick. In other words .0005 inch. The
lacquer that goes on, if it is a good lacquer
job, is approximately seven thousandths of an
inch thick, or .007 inch. Now to get an idea in
your minds as to what these thickness figures
represent, an ordinary piece of writing paper
is approximately four thousandths of an inch
thick so the silver that goes on an instrument
is only 1/8 as thick as a piece of writing
paper, while the lacquer is almost double the
thickness of a piece of writing paper. The
silver in itself is very compatible to the brass.
The lacquer, if it is a good lacquer and baked
on, will be almost as hard as glass and not at
all compatible to brass. The lacquer on the
bell of an instrument is seven thousandths of
an inch thick on the outside and another
seven thousandths on the inside which gives
you a total thickness of fourteen thousandths
or .014 inch. This is already the thickness of
the metal of my instruments so the lacquer
process would double the bell thickness. As
you can see, it is bound to affect the playing
quality of the instrument."

Though Mr. Schilke didn't mention gold in this article, he did feel that Gold had hardly any effect and certainly much less than Lacquer (I grew up in Chicago and was privilaged to have conversations with Renold concerning this and other topics on my many visits to the Schilke company back when they were on Wabash Avenue). A layer of gold and a layer of silver under it still add up to only a thousandth of an inch in thickness, which is still 7 times thinner than a coating of Lacquer (and not "hard-as-rock" as Lacquer is).

Eventually, I'll probably take the chance and see what Gold Plating does to the horn (besides make it look gorgeous).

Well, this became rather long, but hopefully informative to all interested. Lowell, I await your info on the Conrad Gozzo mouthpiece!!!

Sincerely,

John

P.S. Was that Meha that you bought the one I saw on eBay a few weeks ago?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Emb_Enh
Veteran Member


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Rodney:

Yes, that would be great! But first, buy one for yourself. Seriously, they are great horns.

Thanks for the thought,

John
========================

ahhahah......no problem Jane!
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD


[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, about the F. Besson and Claude's sound and Conrad Gozzo's sound. We know how they both sounded using the same horn. Claude had a very big Full Timbre sound. Tom Holden, who played on Claudes band before he studied with him, told me that when Claude played an E above High C, it was fat, and would pin you ears back. Gozzo had a fat sound too but it was more centered, and focused.
I know from studing with Claude, starting in 1970 what mouthpieces he played then, and what he ended up playing as his Personal model many years later. Gozzo play, according to the accounts that I have seen and read, a Bach 7C, which was modified by Burt Herrick. I have alway wondered What was done, to his mouthpiece to get the sound like he did. Did Burt Widden the rim, or shave down the cup, or open the hole or shorten the striaghtaway or open the backbore or, or cut off the end of the piece, like Bob Reeves did for Bud Brisbois. Here is what I think, based on the sound of the two player. Gozzo had a lot of intensity in he sound, which means to me a smaller than C style cup, He played really loud, with focus, which means that Burt may have opened the hole from a 27 to a 26, The straightaway on that model Bach is short already, so I don't feel the did any thing there, or the the back bore, or nor did he cut it off. I have designed Three mouthpieces, Called
FoKus, there is a Lead, All Around, and Principal. Each has its own unique sound. When I play the F. Besson Meha with the Lead, I get that real intense FoKuced Sound similar to Gozzo, when I play it with the Principal mouthpiece, I get a full timbre, maxium Volume sound like Claude. I did not start out to make mouthpeice that emulate their sounds, it just turned out that way. I also discovered that the Principal works best with a larger bore horn, I think that is why, you like the set up you are now playing. I also found that my Lead mouthpiece works best with a bit smaller bore horn. All of that to say, Claude played a bigger mouthpiece than Conrad. There is a place for each of the sounds, and the High School Band Directors here in the Mid-West Love that All Around sound, it has good Fokus, light to dark sound, and good projection, and can hardly wait until they are manufactued, by Sept. so they can have their trumpet sections use them. One director, after I demonstrated them said only a few could use the Lead, the rest would get the All Around.
That it. Best of wishes, Lowell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention anything about the Gold Plating, I have been busy putting three trumpets and a Flugel horn on Ebay, listed under
lsteven1@isd.net have a look,
anyway when I was at CALIF STATE U and LA
I took lessons from Irving Bush, who at the time played, 2nd under Bob Duval in the LA Phil.
He would also try out horns for Don at Benge,
and like the rest of the trumpet section in the LA Phil played a Benge too. One Day he brought in some horns for us to play and evaluate. There were four horns, one of which was Gold plated,
I don't remember what the bell or bore size was , but I do recall that all the guys in the class, DID NOT choose the Gold plated horn. It was not a bright as the Brass Laqured horns. Just a thought. Lowell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lowell,

I'll have to try these designs of yours sometime. I hope to do a clinic in the Twin Cities area eventually and then we could get together.

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good to me, John.
I played my Principal at Church yesterday, and after the second service
the Director of Music stoped me and say, "The sound was outstanding today, so Orchestral, what ever you are doing keep it up, I love the sound".
I know they work, it is a cheap way, without buy one horn or lead and one for all around playing, and one for symphonic playing to get the same effect, on a good horn, just buy changing the mouthpiece, and keeping the same diameter.
By the way the first run I am going to manufactuer are going to be similar to a Bach 3, what size do you play?
Lowell
I am working on a web site and it is still under construction, but how does it look to you so far?
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/FoKusallsilver.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-07-15 08:13, Lowell wrote:

By the way the first run I am going to manufactuer are going to be similar to a Bach 3, what size do you play?
Lowell
I am working on a web site and it is still under construction, but how does it look to you so far?
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/FoKusallsilver.htm



Here come's one long and complicated answer!

I play a Mount Vernon Bach 1 with 25 throat and Schmidt backbore for orchestral stuff(especially with my German Rotary Trumpets).

I'm playing most show work lately on a cup diameter about the size of a Bach 1 1/2 C but a tad shallower. The rim contour on all my mouthpieces except for the Mount Vernon Bach 1 matches the shape of the CG Personal Rim contour (more rounded with less sharp inner edge than a stock Bach).


A Schilke 14A4X for my Schilke Piccolo trumpet. A Schilke 14A4A for my Selmer Piccolo Trumpet part of the time. The same "diameter about the size of a Bach 1 1/2 C but a tad shallower" mouthpiece as described above for my Selmer Pic most of the time. And a "slightly shallower than slightly shallower mouthpiece" with the same 1 1/2 C sized inner cup diameter (and same rim contour as described above) in my Bb (used to be your Bb) trumpet when I'm playing demanding parts range-wise. Depth-wise, this mouthpiece lays somewhere between a Schilke 14A4A and a 14B cup depth. Did I leave any out? Oh yea:

Bach 1 1/2 C Flügelhorn mouthpiece for my Yamaha 631 Flügel (but again, with the rim contour re-shaped to match the CG Personal contour). And on really demanding Orchestral stuff (like Strauss's "Eine Alpensinfonie" which has some nasty High E's), I sometimes play a Bach 1 1/2 C with a 22 throat and a bigger than Schmidt backbore (and the prerequisite re-shaped rim contour to the CG Personal rim shape) instead of the Mount Vernon 1.

I'm not using my "Mohan 7SV and 7MV" or the CG Personal too much right now. Great mouthpieces, but with the Bach 7 sized cup diameter, it makes for too big of a change to go to the Mount Vernon Bach 1 for the Orchestral stuff - I get trouble with double-buzz-type note cracking on the Big Bach if I spend a lot of time playing on smaller diameter mouthpieces.

Maybe I'll get a CG3 one of these days. And then I'll have to try your Fokus models.

Please everybody - get one good mouthpiece and stick with it! Do what I say, not what I do...

Seriously, anyone interested in one style of playing should definitely get one mouthpiece and NEVER switch. And this ABSOLUTELY goes for anybody who is within his or her first 5 years of playing. Get a good all-around normal mouthpiece and stick with it. If you end up in a "multi-style" career as I have (basically I play anything that pays the bills... in other words, a bit of a musical whore), then it helps to be able to control a few different mouthpieces to get different sounds. There's NOTHING like a Mount Vernon or New York Bach 1 for Orchestral sound. Hence they go on eBay for a minimum of about $300 when they are available. Kanstul makes a good copy of this mouthpiece for about $100. But you are going to be in pain if you try to play a heavy-duty lead shout chorus up to High G or A on one!

All for now,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-07-15 08:13, Lowell wrote:
I am working on a web site and it is still under construction, but how does it look to you so far?
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/FoKusallsilver.htm


Looks good to me, Lowell!

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, John, sorry for the delay in my response, I had to get my four new trumpet study books finished by today and to the publisher. About 10 years ago I wrote some daily studies and exercise that helped make me fell good every day, much like Clarke’s exercises, which made him fell good every day. I have been playing these for the last 10 years, Morning and Evening with great success. Then in 1974 I wrote a series of Scale and Chord books in Exercise form with lots of Articulations to give you plenty of time on each to learn the Scale or Chord. I had at that time published those, with a friend of mine Steve Trop, a trombone player. We formed a company and had them printed and I did sell quite a few to Harold Mitchell, dean of west coast brass, in his day, for his students. Now I have put the two together and come up with four new books totaling 310 single sheet pages, here is a look at the proposed covers.

http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/Morning%20Trumpet%20Studies.jpg
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/Evening%20Trumpet%20Exercises.jpg
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/The%20Scale%20Book%20for%20Trumpet.jpg
http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/Finger%20Flexibilities.jpg

A price has not yet been determined for them, but if anyone is interested they can lean more by emailing me at trumpetteacher@email.com

Also I found a picture of me and my old, yours now, Burbank Benge #7956 that I bought from Claude,

http://www.isd.net/lsteven1/Lowell%20Close%20up%20View.jpg

Though you might find that interesting.

Now to make some comments on your letter about which mouthpiece and horn you use for which genre. As I understand what you have written you play an open mouthpiece for Orchestra sound, when playing something that is a bite more demanding you use something a bite smaller and when playing Piccolo something even smaller.
John, in my playing days I played about one genre, Big Band, or as Claude would call it,
Commercial Music. I would use one horn and one mouthpiece, with the same rim on my Flugel Horn. That was it. I did that for about 30 years. Now in the last ten years I have played more kinds of music than I ever did as a Pro Player. Shows, Orchestral, Jazz, Big Band, Concert Band, Polk Band, etc you get the idea. In each one there is a certain concept of sound that you can get close to with one horn and one mouthpiece, but not quite it. So I tried different horns using the same mouthpiece, and let me tell you in the last few years I have bought and sold about $20,000 worth of trumpets. That worked better but still not it. So I called Adolph Herseth, Former Principal Trumpet, with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra for 53 consecutive seasons. He retired after the 2001 summer season. I asked him what he did. He told me that he used the same rim, a Bach Screw rim, and changed the under part to get the sound that he knew the conductor wanted on a particular piece of music. Sometimes, he would change to a different horn, like a rotary valve, but most of his playing was on a Bach C trumpet.
That was the impetus of my idea for the mouthpieces I am now having manufactured, and I see from what you are playing the series would fit you very well. One for Orchestral sound, the Principal, one for piccolo or a bit more demanding range wise, the Lead, and one for those time when you need to just bend in, the All Around.
I am having the first run made in a size similar to a Bach #3 as most of the players around here use that size. I was wondering which size to make next and I will take my cue from the size that you play and make the second run in a size similar to the Bach #1 1/2.
This is the set up that I use now. When I play a symphonic type gigs I use my Principal and, as Adolph Herseth recommended, a Bach 25 large bore.
When I need to just bend in and for Concert Band I play my Chicago Benge and my All Around. And lastly, when I play lead, I play my French Besson pre-war and my Lead mouthpiece. In each case I get the right sound for the genre. What a pleasure.

John I agree with you, that in the early years of playing to use one set up to build a good foundation and then do what you have to later to satisfy the Conductor. Your comment about the Old Bach’s is a valid one. I have a New York Bach made in the late 1920's, in my size that I bought some years ago, and you are right—its magic.

Thanks for sharing with me and everyone who reads this conversation, what you use and when.
Please let me know when you plan to be in my area so we can get together.

Best of Wishes,

Lowell Stevenson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the pict of you and the horn!

You're books look promising - I'll probably buy that scale book.

All for now,

John Mohan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Great John. You can buy the books from me at

Lowell Stevenson
PO Box 820
Anoka, MN 55303
USA

When I know the price in a few days and will post it here when I know. I have a meeting today with the publisher.

Lowell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Lowell
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 328
Location: Escondido, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John here are my Trumpet Study and Exercise books. I got them back yesterday and they are terrific. My students are glad too; they don't have to look at my poor manuscript style any more.

There are four books:

Morning Trumpet Studies price is $15.00
Evening Trumpet Studies price is $11.00
The Scale Book for Trumpet price is $11.00
Finger Flexibilities price is $20.00

Here is a picture of the covers.
http://www.cpinternet.com/~lsteven1/Trumpet%20Books.jpg
Have a look at the covers you will see everything in each book that way.

Note all prices are Plus shipping to where ever you want me to send them
I have played and used these exercises for over 30 year with great success.

As I said before you can email me here with orders or to;
trumpetteacher@email.com
if you have any questions.

Hope you had a good trip to France. I lived in the south in a village called
Cap d’Ail when I play at the casino in Monte Carlo.

Best of Wishes,

Lowell Stevenson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Claude Gordon All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group