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histrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem dude,
I think that I get too involved sometimes, makes me tired and when I get tired I get a little grumpy. It's no secret where I'm coming from on the air vs. embouchure issue. I like the way Jeff Smiley put it earlier in his post. I have a copy of his book and really got a lot out of it. Not just the embouchure mechanics but the whole basis for his method of teaching. I hate to quote from the book because I may not be accurate but he has some insightful things to say about how we shouldn't have to explore Eastern religion to learn how to breath in regards to playing the trumpet. There are many great players who can't really tell you why they play as well as they do. The embouchure for most of these guys came as a natural set up and they never had to think about what was going on. When they finally make it to the top and somebody asks them how they do it, the only real thing they can think of is to talk about breathing. I don't know, maybe taking a big breath is the only unnatural thing about playing trumpet for them. As far as copying other players commentary from sites like TPIN I feel that if someone wanted to go to the TPIN site they would. Introducing more flawed information to back up something that doesn't wash in the first place just seems self serving. Especially when someone like Charly Raymond takes each point made and proves it to be without any basis in fact. I've got alot of work to do to bring my level of playing up to performance standards and that takes time. I also have a wife and 3 young girls to consider, they grow up while your back is turned. Maybe it is time I spent a little less time on line and a little more time on things that really matter. Keep the great posts coming, I am learning alot.
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce: I think that I get too involved sometimes, makes me tired and when I get tired I get a little grumpy.

ND: We all do, and it takes a special kinda someone to readily admit that. Thank you for your candor, it's very refreshing.

Bruce: It's no secret where I'm coming from on the air vs. embouchure issue.

ND: Yeah, I know. (and I'm right there with ya!) But the important thing to remember here is that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Bruce: I like the way Jeff Smiley put it earlier in his post. I have a copy of his book and really got a lot out of it. Not just the embouchure mechanics but the whole basis for his method of teaching. I hate to quote from the book because I may not be accurate but he has some insightful things to say about how we shouldn't have to explore Eastern religion to learn how to breath in regards to playing the trumpet.

ND: I like pretty much everything Jeff S. has to say, and they way he says it. He's a very respectful person. (others have called that 'humble' in the C&S thread, I think his respect for others feelings is the key).

On the Eastern religion thing, he's right, they don't, but I look at it like this... different people learn different ways, and if the way something is explained helps someone, it's of value, whether it's in Jeff's book. Yoga texts or in a fortune cookie.

Bruce: There are many great players who can't really tell you why they play as well as they do. The embouchure for most of these guys came as a natural set up and they never had to think about what was going on. When they finally make it to the top and somebody asks them how they do it, the only real thing they can think of is to talk about breathing.

ND: I'm with you 100%. And not only breathing vs. trumpeting! I wonder how Clifford Brown would have explained the use of altered dominants and/or tritone substitutions. My GUESS is he woulda said... "Like this....(insert amazing pyrotechnics here)"

Bruce: I don't know, maybe taking a big breath is the only unnatural thing about playing trumpet for them. As far as copying other players commentary from sites like TPIN I feel that if someone wanted to go to the TPIN site they would.

I, for one have found the TPIN site to be very un-user friendly, and gave up trying to get at it, even though I'm sure there is yet another wealth of information there. So, I don't mind it quite as much.

Bruce: Introducing more flawed information to back up something that doesn't wash in the first place just seems self serving.

ND: If the information is flawed as it pertains to the information they are trying to back up, I'm with you. But again, everyone is afforded their right to an opinion. You can lead a horse to water..... It's my PERSONAL OPINION that everyone would benefit from at least looking at Jeff's material, SC and Caruso. But it won't do a lick of good if THEY DON'T WANT TO.

Bruce: Especially when someone like Charly Raymond takes each point made and proves it to be without any basis in fact.

ND: Preachin' to the choir here, although again, they have to be willing to learn in order to learn.

Bruce: I've got alot of work to do to bring my level of playing up to performance standards and that takes time.

ND: We all do, and yes it does. Don't feel alone in this!

Bruce: I also have a wife and 3 young girls to consider, they grow up while your back is turned. Maybe it is time I spent a little less time on line and a little more time on things that really matter.

ND: We'll miss you if you do, but I don't think anyone would blame you!

Bruce: Keep the great posts coming, I am learning alot.

ND: Thank you, and likewise! We're all here for the same reason. Well... most of us anyway.
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 19:02 ]
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comebackkid
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both chops and "wind" are critical.
If either element is "broken", the system will not work as a whole.
Besides, nobody wants to be around when you break wind

Ed
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott Engelbright [SE]
Charly Raymond [CR]
Roddy Lewis [RL]

--------------------------------------

SE: Think of each note that you play having it's own little 'level' or stair. When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note

CR: TRUE

SE: When you use more and more air, your note gets louder and louder until the breaking point (next partial note up).

CR: What is the difference between using more and more and blowing faster and faster?

RL.....VOLUME AND VELOCITY...2lbs of air exited at 2 feet per second / 2lbs of air exited at 5 feet per second using abdominals. [more/faster] forget the figures used they are just for visualisation purposes.

SE: If you use less and less air, the note gets softer and softer and eventually hops down.

CR: What is the difference between using less and less and blowing slower and slower?

RL: VOLUME AND VELOCITY...2lbs of air exited at 2 feet per second / 2lbs of air exited at 1 feet per second using less abdominal thrust. [less/slower]

CR: When air speed increases and lip tension maintains a constant pitch.
THE RESULT IS A LOUDER PITCH. The conclusion is that lip tension is able to control the pitch regardless of the air speed. The determining factor in pitch therefore is the tension in the lips.

RL: It IS possible to play using lip tension to STOP an increase in the pitch if the lips are held in a static manner [as you are suggesting above] WITHOUT lip curl.
If however air speed increases and lip tension is in a state of LIP CURL at the starting point, The RESULT IS A HIGHER PITCH due to the swing door effect with NO added tension. MY conclusion HERE is that air speed IS able to control the pitch in conjuction with the curled lip on any given note dependant on the individuals skill/efficiency level with this technique.The determining factor in pitch for some players playing thus, therefore, is AIR SPEED.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1 . CR: When air speed increases and lip tension remains unchanged. THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH DECREASES. The conclusion is that lip tension is crucial to maintaining a pitch. [air up / lip same / pitch DOWN]

#2 SE: When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note.
[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

#3. CR: TRUE

RL: Charly in #1 you say that pitch decreases / in #2 Scott says it increases / in #3 you appear to agree with Scott that it increases in contradiction of your #1 statement....??
--------------------------------------------------

CR: When air speed stays the same and lip tension increases.
THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH INCREASES. The conclusion is inescapable that lip tension determines pitch and not air speed.

RL:I agree It is POSSIBLE to play this way, MANY do, but it's not THE most EFFICIENT way.

This of course being an OPEN forum I need not worry that I'm OFF topic

---------------------------------------------------

CR: If the air speed is increased on the note being held, something has to change. If there is no further increase in the lip tension, at some point the lips will be blown apart. What else can they do?

RL: ....blown apart when?

CR: At some point.

RL: You say at 'some' point. Well my corners are strong enough and the mpc sealed enough, maybe a little more than the norm, for them NOT to be blown apart even into the tripple register using a more focussed air column as opposed to a large broad air column.

CR: If there is truly no change in any muscular activity in your face (which would include the tongue) and you are consequently not increasing lip tension in any way, then my experiment has not succeeded with you.

RL: Another thought.......

.....LIP CURL.....as a starting point for a given note I use some lip curl and therefore some lip tension, however to make the note flip up a level I can increase the air speed which blows the swing doors [lips] closer together WITHOUT adding more lip tension.......

>>>)
>>>>AIR
>>>)


SE: When you hear people mention faster air when they play, they are usually referring to higher notes.

CR: Except me. When I mention faster air I'm referring to louder notes.

RL: and that's okay if you want to think/call it that.This is your term of reference for you, not for me [or SE] though. SEMANTICS.

Faster air passed through lips held with some LIP CURL will indeed increase the pitch WITHOUT adding lip tension as the lips close up a little [swing door effect] making the aperture smaller, this combined with the bernoulli effect of the pressure drop between the lips and also the reflected sound wave from the bell acting like a closed ended tube also providing some more resistance [lip closing] results in a PITCH INCREASE.

If lips are held under tension and held purposefully in one position with NO lip curl employed, then the pitch will remain the same and the volume of the note will get louder WITHOUT a pitch increase as the lip tension negates the swing door effect
[and will also play a significant part in affecting the other variables mentioned here]
if indeed the lips were in a curled position at the starting point.

You see as air is inhaled as the diaphragm lowers. The volume of the lungs expands and air rushes in to fill this space. We exhale as the muscles of the rib cage lower and the diaphragm raises, essentially squeezing the air out aided by adominal compression at the higher end of the trumpet range. The GLOTTIS is the first point of resistance to the air in it's journey through the body NOT the lips as some may think. In order to produce sound, the lips provide the next resistance to the air rising from below. Air then bursts through the lips. As the air rushes through, the pressure between the lips drop, sucking them back together. This is known as the "Bernoulli Effect." With this step repeated hundreds of times, the lips vibrate to produce sound. Therefore pitch is the number of times the lips vibrate per second.

Bernoulli Effect: If the lip aperture was too spread or open to start, and a change is made to reduce the overall size, using the same amount of air forced through the now smaller aperture will increase the air velocity resulting in a transfer of energy from potential to kinetic. Thus velocity increases (kinetic component) and pressure (potential component) falls. Hopefully this will go some way in answering some of the questions as to sound production variables.

Yours Roddy o-iii<O


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[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii<O on 2002-08-09 13:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii<O on 2002-08-09 13:53 ]

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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1 . CR: When air speed increases and lip tension remains unchanged. THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH DECREASES. The conclusion is that lip tension is crucial to maintaining a pitch. [air up / lip same / pitch DOWN]

#2 SE: When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note.
[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

#3. CR: TRUE

RL: Charly in #1 you say that pitch decreases / in #2 Scott says it increases / in #3 you appear to agree with Scott that it increases in contradiction of your #1 statement....??


Only got time for one response. The rest later.

SE is stipulating that the aperture remains the same. In #1 (my model) I wasn't making that stipulation. It requires more and more facial muscle exertion (lip tension) to hold that aperture size as the air speed increases. So as air speed increases the lip tension increases to maintain the same aperture and the pitch increases as a result of the increased lip tension. In my model as the air speed increases but the the lip tension is constant, the increased air speed causes the aperture to get bigger until the lips blow apart. Pretty simple actually.

Your criteria of

air up / lip same / pitch DOWN

and

[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

the values for the "lip/same" criteria are not the same.












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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-09 14:21 ]
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CR: In my model as the air speed increases but the the lip tension is constant, the increased air speed causes the aperture to get bigger until the lips blow apart. Pretty simple actually.

RL:In my model as the air speed increases but the the lip tension is constant, the increased air speed causes the aperture to close up some [swing door effect]. Pretty effective actually.
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RL POSTED: **************************************************************************

#1 . CR: When air speed increases and lip tension remains unchanged. THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH DECREASES. The conclusion is that lip tension is crucial to maintaining a pitch. [air up / lip same / pitch DOWN]

#2 SE: When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note.
[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

#3. CR: TRUE

RL: Charly in #1 you say that pitch decreases / in #2 Scott says it increases / in #3 you appear to agree with Scott that it increases in contradiction of your #1 statement....??

IN RESPONSE CR POSTED: **************************************************

#1 . CR: When air speed increases and lip tension remains unchanged. THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH DECREASES. The conclusion is that lip tension is crucial to maintaining a pitch. [air up / lip same / pitch DOWN]

#2 SE: When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note.
[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

#3. CR: TRUE

RL: Charly in #1 you say that pitch decreases / in #2 Scott says it increases / in #3 you appear to agree with Scott that it increases in contradiction of your #1 statement....??


Only got time for one response. The rest later.

SE is stipulating that the aperture remains the same. In #1 (my model) I wasn't making that stipulation. It requires more and more facial muscle exertion (lip tension) to hold that aperture size as the air speed increases. So as air speed increases the lip tension increases to maintain the same aperture and the pitch increases as a result of the increased lip tension. In my model as the air speed increases but the the lip tension is constant, the increased air speed causes the aperture to get bigger until the lips blow apart. Pretty simple actually.

Your criteria of

air up / lip same / pitch DOWN

and

[air up / lip same / pitch UP]

the values for the "lip/same" criteria are not the same.

RL RESPONDED WITH: *************************************************

RL:In my model as the air speed increases but the the lip tension is constant, the increased air speed causes the aperture to close up some [swing door effect]. Pretty effective actually.

NOW CR RESPONDS AGAIN: *************************************************

Roddy, you mentioned that it appeared that I was contradicting myself with two different statements so I explained that the apparant contradiction was due to you using the term "lip same" ambiguously, making my statements seem contradictory. Your reply to that post was the one just above which makes no mention of whether you have found my explanation satisfactory regarding the contradiction. I had to explain my model to point out how you had used "lip same."

I'm wondering, in your model, how you determine that there is no additional lip tension as you speed up the air?


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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-11 03:04 ]
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CR: What is the difference between using more and more and blowing faster and faster?

RL.....VOLUME AND VELOCITY...2lbs of air exited at 2 feet per second / 2lbs of air exited at 5 feet per second using abdominals. [more/faster] forget the figures used they are just for visualisation purposes.

CR: In SE’s model more and more air gets used. You’re saying the same thing. You’re using more air by blowing the air faster.

CR: What is the difference between using less and less and blowing slower and slower?

RL: VOLUME AND VELOCITY...2lbs of air exited at 2 feet per second / 2lbs of air exited at 1 feet per second using less abdominal thrust. [less/slower

CR: Same answer as above in reverse. Less air thru the lips is slower air thru the lips.

CR: When air speed stays the same and lip tension increases.
THE RESULT IS THAT PITCH INCREASES. The conclusion is inescapable that lip tension determines pitch and not air speed.

RL:I agree It is POSSIBLE to play this way, MANY do, but it's not THE most EFFICIENT way.

CR: Actually this is a very efficient way to manage pitch change. Probably the most efficient way.

RL: Another thought.......

.....LIP CURL.....as a starting point for a given note I use some lip curl and therefore some lip tension, however to make the note flip up a level I can increase the air speed which blows the swing doors [lips] closer together WITHOUT adding more lip tension.......

CR: Is it correct that in your model, you are blowing the air thru the curled lips on a particular pitch, and then you increase the air speed and the note that is sounding moves up to a higher level? Is there any way to determine that facial muscles are not involved in any additional state of flex when the air speed is increased?

SE: When you hear people mention faster air when they play, they are usually referring to higher notes.

CR: Except me. When I mention faster air I'm referring to louder notes.

RL: and that's okay if you want to think/call it that.This is your term of reference for you, not for me [or SE] though. SEMANTICS.

CR: This is not Semantics. Semantics is the study of the meaning of words. SE, you and I are in complete agreement by what we mean by faster and louder. Faster air is air that is moving at a rate of speed greater than a previous speed. A Louder sound is one that has more decibels than a previous sound. No disagreement with what we mean by these terms at all. We are in disagreement about how air speed impacts pitch and volume. That’s not Semantics.

RL: Air then bursts through the lips. As the air rushes through, the pressure between the lips drop, sucking them back together.

CR: Or maybe the lip tension increases forcing the lips back together. If the tension on the lips, which are touching, is at a certain level and the lips are then opened by the air stream, the tension in the lips might increase, something like a bow and arrow string. The string is under tension and as it is pulled back the tension increases. Similarly, the lips would have too much tension for the air to open them so they would go back to touching again. The tension would then be back to where it was at the start, and now the air would be able to once again open them. This open and closing process would take place 440 times a second for A440. This seems like another reasonable aspect of what makes the lips vibrate, also.

RL: Bernoulli Effect: If the lip aperture was too spread or open to start, and a change is made to reduce the overall size,

CR: Any specific kind of change being made?

RL: using the same amount of air forced through the now smaller aperture will increase the air velocity resulting in a transfer of energy from potential to kinetic.

CR: If the air is already moving, wouldn’t it already be kinetic energy?
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the air rushes through your system, the pressure between the lips drop, sucking them back together. This is known as the "Bernoulli Effect." With this step repeated hundreds of times, the lips vibrate to produce sound. Therefore pitch is the number of times the lips vibrate per second.

Bernoulli Effect: If the lip aperture was too spread or open to start, and a change is made to reduce the overall size, using the same amount of air forced through the now smaller aperture will increase the air velocity resulting in a transfer of energy from potential to kinetic. Thus velocity increases (kinetic component) and pressure (potential component) falls.

The shape of the aperture determines the general sound quality, flat shaped / oval shape / or 'O' shaped produces edgy tone / more rounded sound / fullest round tone respectively. The amount of mpc pressure against the lips at any given pitch will affect tone quality as the aperture will be affected by the amount of mpc pressure in use. The choice of equipment obviously has a dramatic effect on all the variables mentioned above.

CR writes...I'm wondering, in your model, how you determine that there is no additional lip tension as you speed up the air?

....because as faster air is blown, the lips starting under SOME lip tension to begin with, [in a LIP CURL] get blown forward [swing door effect] requiring less tension for the area surrounding the soft center. Thereby allowing for greater lip vibrations through a more soft center into the higher register. The corners requiring more firming up as you ascend.

It is not an either / or situation, [tension or air] rather a choice as to which element of the overall "blowing" mechanism you wish to give more credence to in the personal co-ordination of ALL the variables.

Yopurs Roddy o-iii<O
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RL: ....because as faster air is blown, the lips starting under SOME lip tension to begin with, [in a LIP CURL] get blown forward [swing door effect] requiring less tension for the area surrounding the soft center.

CR: You haven't shown that the lips are responding to the air stream any differently with what you call the "swing door effect" than they do in any other closed position. The only thing that is known about the lips is that they get blown apart by the air stream ... close ... and repeat this cycle many times a second to create a vibration. Swinging door effect?? Sounds like an over active imagination.

RL: The corners requiring more firming up as you ascend.

CR: So it is necessary that there be additional muscular tension for increases in pitch .

RL: It is not an either / or situation, [tension or air] ........

CR: Exactly. And, of course, I have never advocated that pitch can be increased without air being present. Without an air stream there can be no vibration of the lips and with no vibration there can be no pitch whatsoever.



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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-13 11:25 ]
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CR: Sounds like an over active imagination.
============================

hahah---it helps....C U...

Yours Roddy o-iii<O
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