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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be great if some of the guys on the TH who have studied with Doc could post about their experiences, maybe their first lesson (orientation & analysis), their best lesson (when Doc made a discovery that truly unlocked your potential), even their worst lesson.

Doc always told me not to warm up before my lessons with him because he wanted to "catch me with my pants down." And boy-oh-boy, that he did, pretty much every time.

Another possibility would be for inquiring minds to pose questions to students of DSR.

Or, owners of the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System may be having some interpretation issues regarding portions of the text.

How 'bout those guys who say that the Pivot System "messed them up?" Let's see if we can find out exactly what really did mess them up.

Above all, it's probably a good idea to remember that Reinhardt always used to say "I never give a lesson that I don't take a lesson." None of us (I believe) measure up to the sheer genius of the man, so why would we want to pretend to know as much as (or more than) he did?

Maybe some of you remember the sign in his outer office that said, "People who know everything are particularly annoying to those of us who do." I would hope that this will *not* be a forum of know-it-alls, as that would certainly be a disservice to the man.

And I will acknowledge here at the outset that I'm by no means the most advanced or knowledgeable Reinhardt student. Far from it. But I *am* dedicated, in spite of the fact that I've investigated other methods through the years since I studied (in person) with Doc. (Funny how I always come back to my Reinhardt stuff.)

Let the posts begin! Bugler, sound "First Call" . . . .
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Lex Grantham
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I was never a student of Doc, but I was taught the Pivot System when I was a trumpet student under John Haynie at North Texas State University (1963-68...a long time ago).

My question is...I have the book "Pivot System" by Reinhardt, but I have heard the name "Reinhardt Encyclopedia" used instead. Is it the same as the book that I have?

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham
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Buzz
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Rich! I'll be looking in on this forum regularly. I studied with a former Reinhardt student in Atlanta for a few months. Some of the things he wanted me to do were to...

move my mouthpiece higher
free buzz on firm embouchure
learn to buzz higher
blow straight down my chin in order to pivot higher
blow straight up to play lower
track exercise
puffy cheek exercise
there was one more exercise... i can't remember it right now.

My goal was to improve my range and flexibility. HOWEVER, I'm already a tense person, and I found that I kinda froze, and everything seemed to be getting worse. Maybe it was all of the changes that I was trying to make at one time. I dunno. But I felt like I was doing everything wrong. If you were my teacher, what would you suggest for a daily practice routine? Oh yeah...you know the vibrato thing... well... I think it has more to do with relaxing and air than with anything else. I think exaggerating it is probably not the answer. I'm an on the edge of my seat, leaning forward kinda player. The other night, at a friends request, I just kinda sat back and improved my playing posture so the air stream was unimpeded. The vibrato disappeared. Thanks for looking into it for me. Anyways... anything you would suggest that could be helpful to me, I'd appreciate.
Lookin' for "Meg-a Chops."
Meg

[ This Message was edited by: buzz on 2002-08-24 19:29 ]
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DSR
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...a DSR forum! I am truly thrilled.

As some of you may know I am a Reinhardt fanatic, although I have never had a lesson with him. My father studied with him in '72 I think, and since then I have started "adopting the Pivot System". I cannot say enough about the genius of the man and the amazing analytical talent he had. I read the encyclopedia frequently and whenever a problem arises in my playing I consult it and I ALWAYS figure out the problem.

This is very great news!

Long live the Pivot System.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-24 16:50, Lex Grantham wrote:
My question is...I have the book "Pivot System" by Reinhardt, but I have heard the name "Reinhardt Encyclopedia" used instead. Is it the same as the book that I have?


Hey, Lex!

The old "Pivot System For Trumpet: A Complete Manual With Studies" (and I suspect he had the same thing for trombone) was published by Elkan Vogel out of Bryn Mawr, PA, in 1942. The cover of that is essentially the same design as Reinhardt's "Basic Studies for the Beginner" and his "Selection of Concone Studies," also published by Elkan-Vogel. Reinhardt would later refer to that 1942 book as the "Pivot System Manual."

"The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System" was much later, published in 1973 by Charles Colin, NY, NY. While I haven't done a direct comparison between the two, Doc told me that much of what he had written in the Manual was out-of-date, and had been updated and/or rectified in the Encyclopedia.

Charles Colin re-printed the Encyclopedia in 1992, and I'm sorry to report that it is inferior to the original 1973 edition. This is mostly because I was the typesetter working under adverse conditions (in other words, I had a day job and was sneaking around typing that massive book while nobody was around, which wasn't often enough, and was not able to have it proofread, even though they listed me as the editor . . . but Colin has been known to print other things without being proofread and that's another story).

I would suggest going to a library or *anywhere* to get the original 1973 version (which, by the way, Doc typed himself in his office on his typewriter; old man Colin told me that he hated the fact that Doc wanted his typewritten manuscript to be the actual artwork for printing rather than having it typeset, which would have saved tons of paper and cost less and yielded greater profits).

There you have it — more information than you wanted!

One more thing: Dave Sheetz offers a corrected version of the Encyclopedia, and I hear that he sorta did a cut-and-paste job, so it's not the greatest quality, either. There was a whole section of the appendix missing in Colin's reprint (long story), and I don't know if Dave has inserted that in his corrected version or not.

Have a nice day,
Rich
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Lex Grantham
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich:

You are very kind to offer the above information. I had a hunch that the "Pivot System Manual" and the "Encyclopedia" were NOT one and the same book...just by the different names.

Sincerely and thank you,

Lex Grantham
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-24 19:27, Buzz wrote:
I studied with a former Reinhardt student in Atlanta for a few months. Some of the things he wanted me to do were to...


  • move my mouthpiece higher
  • free buzz on firm embouchure
  • learn to buzz higher
  • blow straight down my chin in order to pivot higher
  • blow straight up to play lower
  • track exercise
  • puffy cheek exercise
  • there was one more exercise... i can't remember it right now.


My goal was to improve my range and flexibility. HOWEVER, I'm already a tense person, and I found that I kinda froze, and everything seemed to be getting worse. Maybe it was all of the changes that I was trying to make at one time. I dunno. But I felt like I was doing everything wrong. If you were my teacher, what would you suggest for a daily practice routine? ... anything you would suggest that could be helpful to me, I'd appreciate.


Re: the things the "former Reinhardt student from Atlanta" wanted you to do — Reinhardt told me to never work on more than two corrections of a mechanical nature at any one time. If you try to do several things all at once, of course it can make you crazy.

I'm not sure why he'd have wanted you to move your mouthpiece higher, though. Generally speaking, Mother Nature has a way of getting our setting right according to the formation of our lips, teeth and gums. I can't help you with that part, as I personally wouldn't ask somebody to move his/her mouthpiece higher or lower.

The "free buzz on firm embouchure" you mentioned, I'm guessing, is the buzzing of the lips without a mouthpiece or horn. Reinhardt had lots of guidelines for doing that correctly; most importantly to never tongue a buzz, to use a wet embouchure, to buzz higher than a 2nd line G on trumpet, and to not buzz when your embouchure is fatigued. It's so easy to overdo this buzzing when getting started and that's what goes wrong with so many players. "Less is more" with buzzing at the outset, seconds a day, and build up very gradually. Being able to buzz higher comes with time, and it's not a good idea to rush that.

When you said "blow straight down my chin in order to pivot higher" that doesn't exactly make sense. We'd probably have to address that in person, as well as the opposite, "blow straight up to play lower."

The "track exercise" and "puffy cheek exercise" you mentioned refer to things that I think would be dangerous to assign to somebody who hasn't adopted the correct pivot for their particular embouchure type, and would also be better addressed in person.

I was waiting for somebody else to attempt to answer these questions, but until word gets out, it looks like you're gonna have to accept my attempts to help sort this stuff out. I need to email some people to let them know that there is now a Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt forum here on Trumpet Herald, don't I?

Thanks, Meg, for helping stimulate some discussion here.

Rich
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walter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 10:30 ]
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bulos
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever I know about Doc Reinhardt I got from a former student and from reading the Encyclopedia, lesson notes, and the white and red book. I wish I had known about him earlier on for it seems obvious that he had a very complete understanding of the mechanice involved in playing a brasswind. I also tend to think that he was the system if you will and that one really needed to be with him for a while at least..........I did study with Carmine however and again I think once he passed that was it, it was about the man more then any particular system, he knew what each individual needed.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-26 17:24, bulos wrote:
I also tend to think that he was the system if you will and that one really needed to be with him for a while at least....


Hey, Paul!

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure that I fully agree. You see, Doc was giving 3-day teacher's clinics for years and was very concerned about having as many students as possible prepared to carry on his work once he was gone.

Granted, Doc might have the highest success rate with his methods over any of the students he left behind, but we all have pretty much all the materials he wrote, particularly the students he taught in his last 5 or so years on Earth.

Doc definitely had a knack for figuring out the angle of your pivot, and usually could figure that out before ever even watching you play. In his original Encyclopedia, though, are all the "tests" to determine which pivot classification you are, which type you are, and pretty much everything else you'd need to know to proceed according to his teachings.

Some of us have transparent mouthpieces (invented by Doc Reinhardt), another way to dispel many of the myths of brass playing and to confirm many things that can't be accurately determined any other way (a "visualizer" is a joke compared to a transparent mouthpiece).

The biggest problem I've seen with guys who attempt the Pivot System is lack of a 100% commitment. If, for example, you're using 20% Caruso and 80% Reinhardt, chances are very good that you're going to run into a brick wall.

But I think your statement is probably right about Caruso, judging from all the differences in opinions from his former students that I see on the Caruso forum here on Trumpet Herald.

If you take a hundred 100% dedicated Reinhardt students, you'll probably have a more consistent concensus than with any other type of teaching philosophy. I'm just guessing, but knowing the wealth of literature that Reinhardt left behind, I suspect that's a pretty accurate guess. Reinhardt took into consideration more differences between players than the other guys may have even realized were in existence . . . but I'm speculating based on my conversations with students (and even teachers) of some of those other philosophies.

Any other thoughts? Let 'er rip, folks!

Rich
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scream
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rich,

Thank you for starting this forum. I'll get it on the Reinhardt web-site at http://www.pivotalk.com.

With regards to buzzing:
Doc would say, "Sound determines placement, not feel. What sounds good doesn't necessarily feel good." This is assuming your embouchure needs to work more efficiently. Besides firming up a flabby chin and mouthcorners it gradually shows you where it sounds good....as mother nature takes her course.

I have had many students come to me playing on only part of their top lip, using a lot of pressure to get 'over" the horn (and is that painful!!!). Doc came up with "The Four Buzzing Categories of The Pivot System" for downstream types. Too lengthy to go into detail here. In my experience, as mother nature takes her course, more of the top lip is employed. And over time and diligent practice you get (to paraphrase Doc), "increased vibrating fluency and improved overall sound."

I also liked what you said in response to Bulos in regards to commitment. To get the results needed one must be 100% committed to get the results you want from the Pivot System. No tinkering elsewhere!!

In my studio I have two "retired" (65+) gentleman rediscovering the trumpet. One has been working with me a year and has a good sound all over the horn to a double C. The other squeaked ("The squeak of today is the note of tomorrow"...Doc) up to a G above high C in his second lesson...with ease for the first time in his life.

I'm a babe in arms compared to some of the student/teachers that have studied with Doc. I have learned a lot and have a lot to learn. But I'm amazed at the many successes I've had with the students that have worked with me. What I have learned most is.... YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THE INDIVIDUAL. That was what was so unique about Doc. And in about another 50 years of doing this I may have this down like he did.


Paul Garrett
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spanky
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've consistently read about the pivot system in here, what is it?? i think i'm a downstream player, when i go higher i bring my bottom lip in a little and overlap with my top lip. i've tried lip buzzing some, is it that important to this system. and rich, i would like to be in on the "meg" lesson sunday, if that's ok??
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bulos
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure that I fully agree. You see, Doc was giving 3-day teacher's clinics for years and was very concerned about having as many students as possible prepared to carry on his work once he was gone.

perhaps Rich but I think of it in terms of a simple 1 sentence thought passed down a line of 25 people, by the time it reaches the last person it's become a totally different message, but while I am sure there are some guys out here like you , Chris, Dave Sheets, etc, who did have 1st hand experiences and totally understand it, I don't see how bringing part of ones self to it can be avoided...........maybe a good thing no?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-31 16:27, bulos wrote:
perhaps Rich but I think of it in terms of a simple 1 sentence thought passed down a line of 25 people, by the time it reaches the last person it's become a totally different message, but while I am sure there are some guys out here like you, Chris, Dave Sheetz, etc, who did have 1st hand experiences and totally understand it, I don't see how bringing part of ones self to it can be avoided...........maybe a good thing no?


Here's the beauty of it, Paul: Doc documented so much information in his books and in his lesson handouts that there's not much left to the imagination. It's all there in print.

I suspect that other long-time Reinhardt students feel about his teachings the same way I do: don't dilute the message. If I present Doc's materials as precisely as he did, then everybody wins, and in particular, the Reinhardt legacy continues to live and thrive and even grow.

Doc worked hard and studied many embouchures to arrive at his conclusions, and who am I to "interpret" anything that he wrote. His ability as a technical writer ensured that the message was delivered to subsequent generations intact.

So, there you have it, Paul. If you pass a written sentence down a line of 25 people, each and every one (provided that they're literate) will read precisely the same message, and by the time it gets to the last person it hasn't changed one bit at all.

What a concept!

Rich
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walter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 10:31 ]
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,

I was listening to you work with I believe spanky yesterday at the clinic and then to hear you Paul play was amazing. There seems to be something to the Reinhardt system. I plan to attend the seminar Paul is having at his studio later this fall.

I tried using a little less pressure today and my sound and endurance improved right away. I look forward to learning more,
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