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Mouthpiece gap on vintage Benges



 
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BengeBoy
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Joined: 26 Aug 2002
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Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece gap on vintage Benges Reply with quote

I've read here on TH about problems with mouthpiece gap on vintage
Benges. I did a crude measurement of the gap on my Benge. I stuck a wire into the receiver until it hit the end of the leadpipe and measured the
distance. Then I measured how far my mouthpiece inserted into the
receiver. I subtracted the two numbers to determine the gap.

The gap with my trusty Conn 4 was about 0.3 inches. The gap with my
Curry 3C was about 0.2 inches.

Are these gaps too big? I'm about to send my Burbank Benge to Kanstul
for refurbishing. Should I request that they somehow adjust the gap?

Thanks,
Tim
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Benge Loyalist
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Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The general measure (quoted without regard to make of trumpet) for the gap is 0.125", or 1/8 inch. This comes from what I've long believed and backed up on the GR website - what might be the most comprehensive discussion of gap on the web.

As far as the optimal gap for a vintage Benge (my definition of vintage includes all Chicagos, all Burbanks, all large bores numbered #1501 to #2000, and LA numbered #8300 to #8700), my experience is very limited. I can say, from experience, that a Stomvi 5E 'heavy' mouthpiece fits slightly deeper into the receiver, thus closing the gap in my Benge 2c+ (Burbank, silver plate, #74xx). In so doing, it almost completely eliminates the horribly flat 5th partial (4th line D and 4th space E). I've since discovered a second mouthpiece sharing this wonderful characteristic - a Giardinelli underpart matching my beloved 30 year old Giardinelli rim.

The discovery was accidental. I left my mouthpieces in another case and, when pulling out my C on which to perform, discovered only the Stomvi in the case. What a delight to realize the difference it made in the 5th partial! In trying all my other mouthpieces, the Giardinelli underpart was discovered.

I've not measured the gap in any of my horns and can't provide them here. But is something long needing to be done. This thread just might motivate me!
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Benge Bb 5x ml #8162 Burbank 1969 gold
Benge C 2c+ mlp #7481 Burbank 1968 silver
Benge D/Eb ml #6579 Burbank 1965 raw brass
Benge Flugel 5 ml #17708 Los Angeles silver
Stomvi piccolo, m1
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rwbanks1962
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Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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Location: Fort Worth, TX, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been meaning to look into the gap on my 75 LA Benge for some time now as well, and this is what I came up with for my collection of mouthpieces:

1975 LA Benge 3X

Mouthpiece/Gap (in inches)

Curry 3C./0.244
Curry 3ZM./0.239
Curry 3BC./0.239
Curry 60MC/0.237
Curry 50M/0.245
Curry 5C/0.237
Curry 5ZM/0.215
Benge 1 1/2C/0.193
Benge 5B/0.211
Benge 7C/0.193
Bach 7C (new)/0.257
Bach 10 1/2C (new)/0.215
Marcinkiewicz Shew 1.5/0.284

The above is based on a receiver depth of 1.389" and insertion depths ranging from 1.105" (Shew 1.5) to 1.196 (Benge 1 1/2C & 7C).

Of the above, the Benge pieces work best for me in terms of timbre and general intonation, but their intonation is a long way from where they could be (even for a Benge).

The real shocker for me was that the Shew 1.5 (with the largest gap) slotted double a, b-flat, and corrected the usual d"-e" intonation problems the horn has, while slightly sharpening the low c', d' and e'. It's a little bright for my tastes, though.

I haven't been able to measure the mouthpiece exit walls or the receiver and venturi inside diameters, but hope to get that done this weekend for both my Benge and Kanstul. I'd really like to see if closing up the gap a bit might help both of the horns.

Thanks,
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Ron Banks
Fort Worth, TX

Kanstul ZKT1600 WB
75 LA Benge 3X
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Benge Loyalist
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

Good work! Keep us posted.

Regards,
Steve
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Benge Bb 5x ml #8162 Burbank 1969 gold
Benge C 2c+ mlp #7481 Burbank 1968 silver
Benge D/Eb ml #6579 Burbank 1965 raw brass
Benge Flugel 5 ml #17708 Los Angeles silver
Stomvi piccolo, m1
Boston 3 star NE Plus Ultra (1912)
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DCB1
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie Melk will adjust your gap for what ever mouthpiece you use for $35. Just a thought.
http://www.charliesbrassworks.com/
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BengeBoy
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCB1,

How would Charlie Melk (or anyone else) adjust the gap? Install a new receiver, or somehow adjust the old one?

Thanks,
Tim
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DCB1
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BengeBoy wrote:
DCB1,

How would Charlie Melk (or anyone else) adjust the gap? Install a new receiver, or somehow adjust the old one?

Thanks,
Tim


Yes. He can do both. He is a master at all he does.
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mcombo
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Adjusting gap... Reply with quote

Check out GR's information about gap here:

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.htm

To adjust the gap, the technician would un-solder the joint between the mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe (as shown in Gary's picture) adjust the gap to spec, and re-solder.

Charlie Melk did this for my Benge 3X to great effect.
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steevo
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To adjust the gap, the technician would un-solder the joint between the mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe (as shown in Gary's picture) adjust the gap to spec, and re-solder.


If the gap is too large, it can also be adjusted with a #1 Morse taper reamer. (Caution: this would be a non-reversable modification, and easy to screw up!)
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DCB1
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing you could do.... Reeves sleeves for your mouthpiece.
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John 14:6
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rwbanks1962
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely going to try the Reeve's sleeves route for my Benge and Kanstul, and am thinking very seriously about sending the Benge to Charlie Melk for a gap adjustment if the sleeves even out the flat d" and e" on that horn.

On the tapered reamer route, it could work, but easy does it -- if you use to much force, a weak solder joint could have you torquing your leadpipe into a pretzel (in addition to the obvious problem of taking off too much material).
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Ron Banks
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Kanstul ZKT1600 WB
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