• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Mouthpiece gap on vintage Benges



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BengeBoy
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2002
Posts: 192
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece gap on vintage Benges Reply with quote

I've read here on TH about problems with mouthpiece gap on vintage
Benges. I did a crude measurement of the gap on my Benge. I stuck a wire into the receiver until it hit the end of the leadpipe and measured the
distance. Then I measured how far my mouthpiece inserted into the
receiver. I subtracted the two numbers to determine the gap.

The gap with my trusty Conn 4 was about 0.3 inches. The gap with my
Curry 3C was about 0.2 inches.

Are these gaps too big? I'm about to send my Burbank Benge to Kanstul
for refurbishing. Should I request that they somehow adjust the gap?

Thanks,
Tim
_________________
Tim Murtaugh

Burbank Benge 3x
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge Loyalist
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 260
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The general measure (quoted without regard to make of trumpet) for the gap is 0.125", or 1/8 inch. This comes from what I've long believed and backed up on the GR website - what might be the most comprehensive discussion of gap on the web.

As far as the optimal gap for a vintage Benge (my definition of vintage includes all Chicagos, all Burbanks, all large bores numbered #1501 to #2000, and LA numbered #8300 to #8700), my experience is very limited. I can say, from experience, that a Stomvi 5E 'heavy' mouthpiece fits slightly deeper into the receiver, thus closing the gap in my Benge 2c+ (Burbank, silver plate, #74xx). In so doing, it almost completely eliminates the horribly flat 5th partial (4th line D and 4th space E). I've since discovered a second mouthpiece sharing this wonderful characteristic - a Giardinelli underpart matching my beloved 30 year old Giardinelli rim.

The discovery was accidental. I left my mouthpieces in another case and, when pulling out my C on which to perform, discovered only the Stomvi in the case. What a delight to realize the difference it made in the 5th partial! In trying all my other mouthpieces, the Giardinelli underpart was discovered.

I've not measured the gap in any of my horns and can't provide them here. But is something long needing to be done. This thread just might motivate me!
_________________
Benge Loyalist aka UsedBits
Benge Bb 5x ml #8162 Burbank 1969 gold
Benge C 2c+ mlp #7481 Burbank 1968 silver
Benge D/Eb ml #6579 Burbank 1965 raw brass
Benge Flugel 5 ml #17708 Los Angeles silver
Stomvi piccolo, m1
Boston 3 star NE Plus Ultra (1912)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rwbanks1962
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 113
Location: Fort Worth, TX, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been meaning to look into the gap on my 75 LA Benge for some time now as well, and this is what I came up with for my collection of mouthpieces:

1975 LA Benge 3X

Mouthpiece/Gap (in inches)

Curry 3C./0.244
Curry 3ZM./0.239
Curry 3BC./0.239
Curry 60MC/0.237
Curry 50M/0.245
Curry 5C/0.237
Curry 5ZM/0.215
Benge 1 1/2C/0.193
Benge 5B/0.211
Benge 7C/0.193
Bach 7C (new)/0.257
Bach 10 1/2C (new)/0.215
Marcinkiewicz Shew 1.5/0.284

The above is based on a receiver depth of 1.389" and insertion depths ranging from 1.105" (Shew 1.5) to 1.196 (Benge 1 1/2C & 7C).

Of the above, the Benge pieces work best for me in terms of timbre and general intonation, but their intonation is a long way from where they could be (even for a Benge).

The real shocker for me was that the Shew 1.5 (with the largest gap) slotted double a, b-flat, and corrected the usual d"-e" intonation problems the horn has, while slightly sharpening the low c', d' and e'. It's a little bright for my tastes, though.

I haven't been able to measure the mouthpiece exit walls or the receiver and venturi inside diameters, but hope to get that done this weekend for both my Benge and Kanstul. I'd really like to see if closing up the gap a bit might help both of the horns.

Thanks,
_________________
Ron Banks
Fort Worth, TX

Kanstul ZKT1600 WB
75 LA Benge 3X
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Benge Loyalist
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 260
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

Good work! Keep us posted.

Regards,
Steve
_________________
Benge Loyalist aka UsedBits
Benge Bb 5x ml #8162 Burbank 1969 gold
Benge C 2c+ mlp #7481 Burbank 1968 silver
Benge D/Eb ml #6579 Burbank 1965 raw brass
Benge Flugel 5 ml #17708 Los Angeles silver
Stomvi piccolo, m1
Boston 3 star NE Plus Ultra (1912)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DCB1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charlie Melk will adjust your gap for what ever mouthpiece you use for $35. Just a thought.
http://www.charliesbrassworks.com/
_________________
DCB <><
John 14:6
Member since 2001
Curry
Bach
Selmer Radial
Kanstul
Holton
Amati
Conn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
BengeBoy
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Aug 2002
Posts: 192
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCB1,

How would Charlie Melk (or anyone else) adjust the gap? Install a new receiver, or somehow adjust the old one?

Thanks,
Tim
_________________
Tim Murtaugh

Burbank Benge 3x
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DCB1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BengeBoy wrote:
DCB1,

How would Charlie Melk (or anyone else) adjust the gap? Install a new receiver, or somehow adjust the old one?

Thanks,
Tim


Yes. He can do both. He is a master at all he does.
_________________
DCB <><
John 14:6
Member since 2001
Curry
Bach
Selmer Radial
Kanstul
Holton
Amati
Conn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
mcombo
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 217
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Adjusting gap... Reply with quote

Check out GR's information about gap here:

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/gap.htm

To adjust the gap, the technician would un-solder the joint between the mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe (as shown in Gary's picture) adjust the gap to spec, and re-solder.

Charlie Melk did this for my Benge 3X to great effect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steevo
Veteran Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 425

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To adjust the gap, the technician would un-solder the joint between the mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe (as shown in Gary's picture) adjust the gap to spec, and re-solder.


If the gap is too large, it can also be adjusted with a #1 Morse taper reamer. (Caution: this would be a non-reversable modification, and easy to screw up!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DCB1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Jacksonville, Florida

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing you could do.... Reeves sleeves for your mouthpiece.
_________________
DCB <><
John 14:6
Member since 2001
Curry
Bach
Selmer Radial
Kanstul
Holton
Amati
Conn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
rwbanks1962
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 113
Location: Fort Worth, TX, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely going to try the Reeve's sleeves route for my Benge and Kanstul, and am thinking very seriously about sending the Benge to Charlie Melk for a gap adjustment if the sleeves even out the flat d" and e" on that horn.

On the tapered reamer route, it could work, but easy does it -- if you use to much force, a weak solder joint could have you torquing your leadpipe into a pretzel (in addition to the obvious problem of taking off too much material).
_________________
Ron Banks
Fort Worth, TX

Kanstul ZKT1600 WB
75 LA Benge 3X
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group