Counting phrases in Jazz Improvisation

[mustbflat]

Believe it or not, I'm having difficulty counting phrases or measures while improvising. I'm working with an Aebersold book and I can work in the improv okay, but I seem to have a problem also counting the number of 4 or 8 bar phrases. What usually happens is that I return to the melody one or two phrases before the end of the song.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help develop good counting habits and keeping place? I really can count though. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8....see!

[Larry Smithee]

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:49 ]

[jazz_trpt]

The idea is not to have to count at all. You should be working to internalize the sound of the chord progression. (Likewise, you want to get to the point where you don't actively think about the notes and scales for each chord in the chord progression while you're improvising.) It's all a big distraction that gets in the way of you expressing ideas freely.

Try this exercise -- take your favorite Abersold play along and drop the needle in the middle of the track. Identify the top of the form by listening to the chords go by. It's easiest to work on this with blues progressions and AABA standards.

Listen for markers in the tune -- key areas in the tonic, rapid chord progressions that mark turnarounds, etc.

Getting handy at this will free you up in alot of ways...
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[pfrank]

If anything, the thing to have in your head is the original melody--part of why listening to singers is good--you'll be able to feel the ark of the melody as it resolves it's tension at the end of each 8 bar or 4 bar phrase. The same goes for the chord pattern that goes with it. If the comping instruments in the rythm section are resolving the chord, you're at the end of a phrase. Eventually, the 8 and 4 bar phrase will become a part of your body/mind, and you'll notice more when something Isn't set to that pattern.

[jhatpro]

this is a great thread, one that prompts me to ask how others learn chord changes. do you literally memorize them or simply familiarize yourself with them so you can be ready as the rhythm section feeds them to you?

if you do memorize them, do you internalize them as symbols, or groups of notes or, possibly, piano keys?

or do you hear them as different "flavors" of sound?

what works best for you?
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.� Mingus

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[derekph]

There's a great book out there by Jerry Coker (I think) called Hearing the Changes. He discusses learning tunes extensively. One of the big things is being able to recognize keys that the tune is moving through; generalize and simplify the changes to the tune. I do think that it's a useful skill to be able to hear and instantaneously figure out what key you're in or going to or coming from. Sure there are those gigs where you can bring your Fake Book, but sometimes you (or I do anyway) feel like a bonehead having to read Autumn Leaves or Girl From Ipanema, so you choose to leave the book at home. Then someone calls a tune that you've never heard of before. Now what? This is when your ear really needs to be trained to be able to pick up what's going on in the rhythm section, what the bass player is playing, the form, the key, as much of the melody as you can get, where the bridge is, etc...
This is such an ongoing thing for jazz musicians I think. Training the ear to be able to pick things up on the fly is invaluable.

[jazz_trpt]

[BeboppinFool]

[jazz_trpt]

[BeboppinFool]

[jazz_trpt]

Agreed that it's unusual to have a different number of bars in the form.

But if you're running the tune to, say, "Hocus Pocus" in your head while you're blowing over the changes, don't you run the risk that you're going to be blowing over what you're hearing in your head instead of what the piano player's playing?

Then, there's the "little sunflower" dilemma, where everyone plays the form differently...

Anyways, you're right, it's a good device if you're having trouble keeping time, I suppose, as long as it's not occupying alot of your processing power...
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[PC]

Hi, from the little experience I have I would say that the best bet is knowing the song and being able to play while being aware of the underlying harmony and not just doing your planned solo alone with just yourself (which is really difficult and far from mastered in my case).

An analogy in simpler situations arises in classical orchestral playing where you have lots of bars to count; I seldom do count nowadays, I prefer understanding what goes on in the other instruments and usually it is quite trivial to fit in with your part, whereas inexperienced players get mixed up in their counting and cannot find the right place again as they don't know how to listen and internalise the whole harmonic structure going on at the same time.

So, if you know the changes and are able to internalise what the rhythm section is doing in real time, you souldn't need to explicitly count bars while soloing.

Makes sense?
Pierre.

[mustbflat]

PC

Thanks for the reply. Actually, I have a good feeling for the changes and even if I lose my place for a minute, I can usually pickup the next chord change and get back on track.

The problem I was having (I thought) was in counting the full choruses from the Aebersold recordings. As it turns out, another forum member informed me that occassionally those volumes may say play 5 choruses when there are actually 6 on the recording. This would explain why I was finishing up on the 5th. chorus and the recording would begin a 6th. I assumed the problem was with my counting considering there could never me a misprint in a music book<G>!

Thanks for all the replies.

[trjeam]