Another question

[DSR]

Sorry about asking another question. As a devout Reinhardt follower, (with no exceptions!!!) I need to ask questions and learn. I don't have the knowledge and experience that you guys do so I can't contribute too many of my thoughts.

Anyway. I've been doing some limited reading about SuperChops. (Don't worry, I won't get sucked into the trap.) Now, this system claims to give you amazing range and power and supposedly has fine performers to back up this claim. (Or am I wrong here?) You read about S.C. students playing double Cs and above with ease. Did Doc ever say anything about this system and any validity it may have, or, more likely, lack of validity? Also, when someones plays a la Maggio or a la SuperChops or a la any other embouchure system do they still fall into the 9 embouchure classifications as described by Reinhardt? SuperChops people say (at least I think) that Harry James unconsciously played with a SuperChops embouchure. Yet on one of Chris's posts I read that H.J. was IIIA. Are both possible? I would trust Chris's information if only one statement was true.

The thing here is I really have no idea what S.C. is. I've just heard things about it. I know this is a Reinhardt forum and I'm talking about foreign matters...but I'm talking about this stuff in a D.S.R. context so I hope I didn't violate the rules.

-Brendan

[walter]

Brenden- You should be proud of yourself because of your inquisitive mind. An ancient Greek, Socrates, also had an inquisitive mind. He asked many questions that helped to illuminate some people's thinking (call these people Socratophiles) ... and bothered people who had far less inquisitiveness and very little humor (call these people Socratophobes). He was killed for making Socratophobes uncomfortable.

Now, you are among many friends here; but because this forum is open, many guests from the outside come here to visit. Some of these guests would have had Socrates put to death, and they also might view your inquisitiveness as a suspicious indication that you are a Socratophile. Beware! Others have traveled your path, and have come to also be seen as Socratophiles. We know what the Socratophobes do to Socratophiles.


You said:

[Wilktone]

Disclaimer: I have never studied directly from Dr. Reinhardt. I have learned mostly through the "Encyclopdia..." and second-hand through Doug Elliott. I can't claim to know how Dr. Reinhardt would answer your question, only guess.

OK, with that out of the way, here are some random musings that the above two posts have inspired...

One thing I always encourage my students to do is question everything, including what I suggest for them. There is no such thing as a "perfect system to brass playing." Occassionally I hear from brass players who studied with Reinhardt and tell me he did nothing for them. I can't say if they didn't approach his lessons correctly, they didn't go beyond the Orientation and Analysis, or if Dr. Reinhardt's teachings just didn't click with them.

I get the impression that Dr. Reinhardt developed the Pivot System through questioning things, just like you're doing, Brendan. I also get the impression that Dr. Reinhardt would have wanted you to follow his advice because you saw the logic in it, not because you should follow his advice unquestioningly. I feel it's important to question Reinhardt's teachings, because in the process you will understand it better. Don't just blindly follow its advice, find out why it's advised.

I also think it's important to investigate things which Reinhardt discouraged, but others recommend. If a significant portion of brass players and teachers think it's usefull to tug on your left earlobe before playing a high pitch (for a wacky example), then we should question why that seems to help and also question why Reinhardt discouraged it. What are the advantages to tugging on your earlobe? What are the disadvantages? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages? Is it possible to achieve the same results without tugging on the earlobe? Is this earlobe tug just a shortcut that will cause other problems down the line? Can those problems be addressed when they arise? Which approach is better in the long term?

One way the Pivot System seems to differ from virtually any other brass playing pedagogical approach is in its scientific development. Comparing books and articles about brass playing shows a staggering amount of conflicting advise. Why is that so? Dr. Reinhardt appears to have taken all that conflicting information and worked out how physical difference in brass players' anatomy will dictate how a particular player will play most efficiently. What most other approaches seem to have done is worked out how that particular author plays most effieciently and then recommend that for everyone.

There are exceptions to that last statement. I have come accross much more current writings in brass playing that acknowledge individual differences than are around from 20 years ago or longer, but even those approaches that acknowledge these differences usually expect that they will naturally work themselves out through performing certain exercises.

I have come across lots of advice about brass embouchure that appears to merely be recommending one particular embouchure type of Dr. Reinhardt's for everyone. Others flat out state that its too complex to understand, so we shouldn't try.

One of the strengths of the Pivot System is its ability to accurately describe what I've seen in successful (and unsuccessful) brass players who have never even heard of the Pivot System. You need not have any idea about this to be a great example of a particular type or to use a pivot correctly. This is, according to my understanding, how Dr. Reinhardt developed the Pivot System in the first place - by using successful brass players as models and then looking at what happened when things didn't work well. Through detailed analysis and extensive "field research" he was able to identify the basic embouchure types, how they worked, and how they didn't work.

I just haven't seen this in any other brass embouchure approach (although I'm not as familiar with Maggio's system and the Super Chops system). Those systems do have their successes, however, so I don't feel I can just dismiss them completely. I would be willing to bet, however, that you can take a successful player from any other system and classify them according to Reinhardt's types and probably also identify what Dr. Reinhardt would have called flaws in their playing.

That's not to say that we don't find flaws in Pivot System advocate's playing, that's what the Pivot System is designed in part to do - to expose your weaknesses in order to fix them.

I've waxed philosophical long enough here and I'm afraid I have to actually do some work today, including practicing. I'll leave you with how I started:

Disclaimer: I have never studied directly from Dr. Reinhardt. I have learned mostly through the "Encyclopdia..." and second-hand through Doug Elliott. I can't claim to know how Dr. Reinhardt would answer your question, only guess.

Dave
_________________
wilktone.com

[hairy james]

Brendan,

Without sounding egotistical I believe that I am probably the only one on this forum who can answer your question.

I studied with Doc from 1979 to 1985 and I consider myself to be a "pure Reinhardt" player. But I have also taken a couple of lessons with Jerry Callet. I've known Jerry since I was a kid and he's always been great to me.

I met Jerry in 1981 when I was trying out mouthpieces at Giardinelli's. I was on the second floor with a whole box of 7-M's in front of me when I heard the loudest high notes you can imagine. Now remember I was across the street from Jerry's studio and I heard these high notes loud and clear even with the New York City traffic and street noise!

So I followed the sound until I was across the street at Jerry's studio. I knocked on the door and Jerry answered, he invited me in and proceeded to play some of the most amazing stuff I've ever heard! He was tossing off double 'C's and 'D's and 'F's and 'G's above that with what appeared to be no effort. He played "Hot Canary" and a couple of other Maynard things for me before I left.

That was over twenty years ago, but I've always kept in touch with Jerry on the phone. He also comes down to So. Florida to visit his kid's, and when he does I always try to get together with him.

Last time he came down I took a lesson with him. Now mind you I told him up front that I would not play pedal tones in his lesson or anywhere else for that matter and he agreed. I won't go into the details of what he showed me here because this is the Rienhardt forum and I don't feel that it would be right, and besides Super Chops has their own forum. But let's just say that I took from it what I felt would help me.

While I was at my lesson with Jerry, I pulled out my Pivot System #2 mouthpiece in clear plastic, and asked Jerry if I could "Type" him, he agreed.

Jerry is a downstream type IIIB and plays on a wet embouchure.

I don't consider Jerry to be a true "Pedal Pusher" because he just seems to use them to relax his chops after playing high. Not like the Maggio or Gordon die-hards who actually practice down there for hours each day. Again I must state that I'm not advocating pedal tones for anybody, but there are a lot of guy's who will play a couple of them before putting the horn in the case and I don't think that they should be lumped in with the hard core "pedal tone addicts".


As far as Doc goes, he only mentioned Jerry to me one time. We where talking about mouthpieces and Doc said that he really liked one of Jerry's model's but he wasn't sure which one it was that he had seen. When I recently asked Jerry which one it could have been, he said it was probably his old #2 from the 1970's.

And as far as Harry James goes, yes he was a type IIIA. No matter what embouchure technique a person uses they will always have a "type". Remember Jerry is "Mr. Super Chops" and I typed him as IIIB.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-11-01 23:38 ]