Transcribing

[musicmonkey]

Are there any books available that help develop transcription skills. I know there are books that have transcriptions, but what about books that teach how to transcribe...the whole "give a man a fish" idea i guess.

mm

[jazz_trpt]

I'm not sure. There's probably some material on the Abersold website discussing it. I can give you my thoughts...

First of all, some folks really don't subscribe to the notion that transcribing is useful. That is, they support the concept of learning elements of solos that you like, but they don't think it's particularly useful to write them down. (I think Wynton Marsalis once said that he was in this camp, but this would have been long ago, and I'm not sure whether his view has changed.)

That having been said, I'm (obviously) a big proponent of the technique. I think it's very useful to bee able to look at what's going on in the context of the chord changes to be able to compare/contrast what folks are doing when they reach the same spot in the form at different times. It's also good for developing your reading skills, I think, as you have to get good at back-translating what you hear into the correct rhythms.

Now, all that having been said, how to get started....

First of all, for the first one you do, pick something that you're familiar with and that's of a reasonable length. (Don't try to conquer Everest your first time out.) I think the first solo I ever learned might have been Sweets Edison's solo on "Moten Swing", as we were playing the arrangement in high school, and I wanted to goose the band director at a contest. 16 bars, not a whole lot of fast notes.

Don't get hung up on getting exactly the right rhythms or notes, mistakes are okay (you can go back and fix them later). The technique I used when I was on the road and really cranking them out was to figure out how many bars there were in the solo, mark those out on paper, maybe put a roadmark at the tops of choruses, double-bar lines for sections, etc., then start churning on it. If I got stuck on a particular rhythm or line and just couldn't get it, I'd move on and leave the bars in question blank.

When I'd get through, I'd go back and try to fill in the blanks. There are some techniques you can use for this -- identifying the last notes and working backwords, for example. Generally, breaking things into smaller chunks makes it easier to work on.

Make sure to include nuances that the improvisor is including, like grace notes, short/long articulations, etc. Remember, the idea is to try to incorporate elements of this solo that you like into your "vocabulary".

When you get through, crank the stereo and play along, and correct mistakes as you find them.

Once it's as close as you need it, concentrate on practicing with the recording, and trying to emulate the sound, phrasing, etc. that appeals to you. Practice it enough that you can start to get through elements of it (or all of it) without the music, if possible.

There's an article I wrote a long time ago on this subject here:

http://www.shout.net/~jmh/articles/transcribe.html

I hope this is helpful. Remember, as hard as it seems getting through the first few, it really does get easier the more you do it. Alot easier if you keep at it.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[musicmonkey]

Thanks Jeff! That sounds like some good advice to get started with and the website looks helpful, too (I haven't had time to read it all yet though). I guess all I have to do now is just sit down and with some music and start working

A couple more questions before I get started though

Are Miles's solos generally difficult or easy to transpose? I really like his music and since he uses relatively few notes that seems like it might be a good place to start...

Also, how long does it usually take to transpose, say...16 bars? I realize that the amount of time could vary greatly depending on a lot of things but is there a ballpark? Like 1-2 hours? 1/2 hour? Should the whole transcription be done all at once or can I split it up as time allows?

thanks,
mm

[PH]

I have found that Miles can be hard to notate if you are trying to be extremely accurate. He scoops, inflects, and bends so many notes. He also has a very liquid sense of rhythm. No matter, if he is the one that speaks to you then he is the one you should transcribe.

I usually have students start out with Chet Baker or Blue Mitchell. Pre-bop guys (like Sweets, Buck Clayton, Armstrong, Ruby Braff, etc.) are good, too.

I prefer to learn to sing the solo first, then play it, then write it down. The writing down is the single best thing you can do to improve your ability to sight-read.

[musicmonkey]

Yeah, I realize that there are a lot of nuances in Miles's playing, but I figure if I can figure out the notes and rythm and I play along with some recordings, then maybe the other stuff will come without too much extra effort. I also don't want to necessarily copy the solo exactly, Miles has his style and hopefully I have my own

I will check out the others that you mentioned, though.

Singing the solo also seems like a good idea and an excellent way to start!

mm

[flugle-me-elmo]

I do transcribing of full charts and my best advice is to learn to sing the intervals and play them on piano. A mild amount of piano ability is great because you can hear the pitches AND see them too! Plus you can hold out a note while singing and then poke around finding it on piano. I've had a lot of success this way. Also, when I have to do really fast stuff (like the fast solo in "Maynard Ferguson" by Shorty Rogers, for example) I tend to cheat a little bit and get the CD on my computer as a wav file and then pump it into an audio program like Goldwave and slow the playback speed down so it is exactly an octave lower and just half the tempo. I guess that's the new way of slowing down the old record's playback speed to transcribe! Also, I would definately second the motion that it will increase your reading speed. My sight reading is very good compared to those around me, and transposing and composing is about the only thing I do different from many of them. Best of luck to you!

Chris Lane
Memphis, TN
SkippyBog@aol.com

[ZeroMan]

Is there anything wrong with starting with the master himself, Louis Armstrong? When I was in high school my band teacher suggested it, but at the time my head was still filled with Miles and fusion and all the more modern or "hip" stuff and he gave me the same warning Pat Harbison gave you. Armstrong's solos also have untranscribeable or challenging elements to them, but they are taking place in a more basic harmonic context and they form the foundation for the concept of soloing. A lot of the guys in the bop era quoted Pops liberally in their solos, but at such fast tempos that they licks were unnoticed or unrecognizable.

[mark936]

I walked into a record store one time and liked this cover so I bought it. "Porgy and Bess." Miles Davis. First album I owned by him.

I figured I would like the song "Summertime." It was good but the song that bonded me to Miles forever was
"Ain't Necessarily So."

I couldn't stop listening to that song. The orchestra, the lead player, the whole trumpet section, the bones, Miles, man.

I transcribed it and could play most of it. The E is tough, and might be a G. Anyway, I never bothered knowing what key it was in. I just had it memorized note for note and played along with the record.

After that, I bought "Study in Brown" and did "Sandu" and would turn up the speakers and play the whole song for people at any party I went to. You couldn't pay me enough do that now.

I then did "Green Dolphin Street" Jack Sheldon, All stars and Lee Morgan's "Ceora."

If you ever get a chance to hear that 1957 recording of "Porgy and Bess" let me know what you think. I think key of A.

Now I'm working on playing Carl Saunders' Love Dance, courtesy of Jeff Helgesen. edit.
Just do it.

mark (mm)

[ This Message was edited by: mark936 on 2003-01-03 04:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: mark936 on 2003-01-03 04:10 ]

[jazz_trpt]

[musicmonkey]

Hmmm...I know this isn't necessarily the right place for this, but it's kind of related. I was listening to my Kind of Blue the other day and when I got to Flamenco Sketches, near the end the CD started skipping. Not like a blurp in the music but a good ol' fashioned broken-record looping skip.

This makes me really mad as I just got the CD and I was wondering if anybody knows how to deal with skips like this.

mm

[stukvalve]

here is my opinion of what transcribing is. i think the only materials you might need will be recordings and accurate lead sheet(s).

writing it down #498 on my priority list.

i think first and foremost, learn the tune you are transcribing the solo(s) from...then the vibe and the nuance need to be addressed. after that, its important to make sure you have the right notes, nuance and phrasing. then analyze what fits over what .. you know ... like what is the artist is getting at...motific or harmonic ideas need to be examined. i think this is the most important thing when it comes to learning solos. then, to really get the most from it, learn it in all 12. or at least learn it in 3 or so other keys. then write it down without your horn or piano. after that .. you will have mastered the material, memorized a great solo, learned it in other keys, and have taken a really great adventure in the language of jazz. and to get even deeper ... learn the whole CD! make sure its not a compilation .. you really get inside the players head. THE GOAL OF TRANSCRIBING IS TO LEARN TO HEAR LIKE THAT SPECIFIC PLAYER!! THIS IS THE MOST OVERLOOKED CONCEPT IN THE WHOLE EXCERCISE.

its important to learn the vibe! that is the most important part. learn swing. i dont think academia has done much for jazz. the stuff isnt meant to have "teaching materials" eventhough i know there are great theory books and piano stuff out there, aebersolds as well. dude!! listening is what everyone needs.

that is really my 2 cents! goodluck.
_________________
"It's not about working hard, It's about being organized." -Wynton Marsalis

matzentrpt@hotmail.com

[tryingtolivethelife]

I was recentlly told at a jazz trumpet master class, that it is important to learn a transcription first from the record through your ears to your horn. No more obsticals/tools. I was told by this by Dean McNeil who is a very tastefull player I have admired for quite some time. He turned on a blue mitchel album and just started playing along. And he said we should do the same. He actaully made the point of saying that we should maybe go a months worth of transcribing and see how much we can remember. When I asked if we should bring in a chord chart with us, to do it. McNeil said he didn't ahve an answer and he could see the benifits to doing it either way. So I am not sure if it would be better to do charts with chords first or to figure the chords out?? PH?

Thank you,
Chuck

[PH]

Both ways are good. You will find different benefits from each approach. Try them both and see which works best for you right now.