• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Annoying transposition



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Orchestral/Chamber Music/Solo
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I seem to have continuous bad luck with the works we are playing in orchestra: after 2 programs featuring E trumpet riddled with accidentals (Svendsen's 1st. symphony and a Pacius Overture, and a Nielsen choral piece), we now have started working on Capriccio Italien by good old Tchaikovsky: cornet in A with up to 7 sharps in the key signature (but also a mix of 4 # and 3 b), with the usual modulations and accidentals all over the place.

I knew the important solo bits from practising excerpt books so this wasn't too bad, but the parts not in the excerpts were quite a challenge to figure out on C trumpet! On top of that someone had scribbled the pitches for Bb, which was even more confusing, especially since the one who did that had only remote knowledge of scales, mixing liberally flats and sharps!!

What is you girls/guys' experience with difficult transpo reading literature?

Pierre

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2003-01-09 03:21 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
redface
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 643
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruckner 7. Trumpet in F, 5 sharps, playing it on Bb so you have to add an extra #. Flats, double flats, double sharps, natural sharps and natural flats, hardest thing I have ever had to transpose, but annoyingly it was a great piece so you had to really nail it to get the music out. Oh, and someone had written all the transpositions the WHOLE way through in thick, heavy pencil - If I ever see someone doing this I will shoot them, it is SO off putting.
Play Cappricio Italien on a Bb cornet - then all you have to do is add 7b's - this makes the solo really easy (E major becomes E flat major, you don't have to transpose)

[ This Message was edited by: redface on 2003-01-09 03:34 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
davidquinlan
Veteran Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 146
Location: Southgate, Gtr. London

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have played capprico italien a couple of times.. it isn't too bad...

I do hate when you recieve your part and some nonce has written transpositions in... first thing I do erase them...

There is no shame in writing out difficult parts for the instrument you choose to play on (Bb/C etc)...
_________________
David Quinlan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redface, David -

Yes, you're right about Bruckner 7!! The end result is worth it, though! I would have played Cap Ital on a Bb cornet had I had one!!! The concert E major stuff (like the very opening) lies much better on C trumpet (cornet) as you avoid low C#. I considered using my rotary Bb for its sweet tone, but it doesn't have moveable valve slides so C# has to be lipped down quite a bit which takes its toll on the sound. My piston Bb could do the job, but I prefer my large bore C to my lightweight belled Bb and I'm too lazy to switch horns for the solo in the middle!! Actually it is only MM. 120 so it's not as bad as I had preventively practised it.

You are right about rewriting parts, that is much more ethical than scribbling on top of the printed part. We had a trombonist who did not like alto clef, but instead of heavily overmarking the printed part, he just rewrote everything in bass clef and sounded great all the same! I'm just complaining because I know that in the past I could have sight-read my part without problems, it's just been a while (I was once called the transpoking because I showed up at a music camp in London with a C trumpet; somehow, I had this preconception that all the anglo-saxons played on C, couldn't be more wrong!!).

Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2003-01-09 08:06 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
patrick32378
Veteran Member


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 323
Location: Denton Tx

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think that there's really anything WRONG with writing out parts, but the point is to become proficient in your transposition and if that goal is met then there will be no need for writing anything out. I dont know the particular key of the piece in question or what-not, but for certain transpositions (A to C for instance) it can be read as in bass cleff with a displaced octave. Maybe there's a shortcut
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
RockyM
Veteran Member


Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 104
Location: Pacific Northwest

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Transpositian is jus tone of those things one needs to practice like heck on in order to get comfortable. It's easIER on a C trumpet, but that doesn't mean it's easy.

As for writing things on the part, it's really quite simple: MAKE A COPY FIRST!!! Nothing gripes me more than seeing either lots of fingerings, notes, or in some cases both, done in heavy pencil on an original part. It's rude, pure and simple. No one is going to have a problem with a few things written in, we all do it. But, either erase it when you're done, pencil it in lightly so it isn't distracting from the music, or if requires a lot of notations, make a copy and THEN mark the hell out of it.

Trying to erase a heavily marked up part can lead to the original ink getting erased, parts getting ripped, etc. and there just isn't any reason for it. Too many original parts get trashed because of this, and there is no good reason for it.
_________________
Always find some time to practice!
Rocky Meredith
Seattle, WA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SummerSong
Regular Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to transpose a lot in my playing, church work. Even though I use a C trumpet, many times the music directors will change keys to suit choir or soloists. I've learned to transpose to any key. One exercise I used that was helpful was to take a fairly easy piece, like one of the Voxman Selected Duets Book 1. Play the first line as is and, without missing a beat, play the next line up a half step, next line up another half step and so on. Used a lot of variations on this "game".
Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samlg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 905
Location: hampshire, England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi , ok changing the thread slightly here..

why dont we play the part on the trumpet intended, then there is litte need to transpose (if you know your scales!) and you get the sound that the composer wanted?

i see it as like playing the viola part on a violin and transposing it, it doesnt sound right (and possibly wont work because of pitch and things but lets not let that get in the way

samlg
_________________
the BEST horns are BRITISH!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
davidquinlan
Veteran Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 146
Location: Southgate, Gtr. London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"why dont we play the part on the trumpet intended, then there is litte need to transpose (if you know your scales!) and you get the sound that the composer wanted?"

I'm not sure (but could be wrong...) that all composers always had an "intended" trumpet in mind.. I think they were writing in a particular key... it is up to the player to ensure that they play the right notes for their chosen instrument. I have played different editions of the same piece, written for trumpets in different keys.....
_________________
David Quinlan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
trumpetgeek234
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 286
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know pretty sure, that you are not going to use a trumpet the same key as the piece is written in.
You'd need a ton of trumpets. Take for example Dvoraks 9th Symphony. You are definately not going to use an E, E-flat and C trumpet on that piece, just because it is written in those keys!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
blasticore
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 3045
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a slight problem playing Danse Bacchanale last year in orchestra. The trumpet part went in (if I remember correctly) "fa" and "re". Being as how we were cluless about the translation, the director was nice enough to leave us be and hack through part in the wrong key for 20 minutes until he told us what the transpositions were. Just another moment for the trumpets to be laughed at by the rest of the orchestra.
_________________
Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
SummerSong
Regular Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my playing, I've played at services where a half dozen or more traspositions were asked for. Sometimes my trumpet and flute will hardly fit in a choir loft, with all the people there, much less 6 trumpets.
Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZeroMan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-01-18 02:21, samlg wrote:
hi , ok changing the thread slightly here..

why dont we play the part on the trumpet intended, then there is litte need to transpose (if you know your scales!) and you get the sound that the composer wanted?

i see it as like playing the viola part on a violin and transposing it, it doesnt sound right (and possibly wont work because of pitch and things but lets not let that get in the way

samlg


Traditionally trumpets just had to add the correct crook to play in the proper key. After valved trumpets came into regular use, composers just stayed within that tradition and marked the part for the trumpet in that key.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again:

1. About using different trumpets: I think that as posted above, the original intention was not so much to use different trps altogether, but insert the right crook to have the instrument sound the correct pitches. This tradition carried on with the added valves, even though obsolete. By the time we reach Mahler & Strauss, the choice of transpos are pretty much reduced to Bb and F, with the occasional E and C. But now, there is no obvious logic for why we should follow the transpos indicated, as a high concert C can appear on either Bb (high D) or F (written G) trp, and the same goes for low notes. Also, key signatures are not necessarily easier on the trumpet written for.

The accepted practice nowadays, seems to be use the equipment which will give the right sound (as in having the conductor smile ecstatically back at you!): for the same part, this might be a rotary Bb for player 1 or D piston trp for player 2 or even piston picc for player 3. Nobody in the audience (except trp geeks like me!) pay any attention to what piece of tubing you have in your hands anyway.

2. On the horror of marked transpo with black ink on top of a printed part: not only does it invariably fit the trp which I happen NOT to have chosen (written transpo for Bb while I play C, for example), but a lot of times, the writer has only the faintest of knowledge in music theory: if a passage turns out to be a simple E major figure on Bb trp, one invariably sees a mixture of Eb, Ab, C# etc. instead of D#. G# and such notes that belong to the scale! This is positively irritating!!

Pierre
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
trombapaul2
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Oct 2002
Posts: 1889
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blasticore brings up a good point. Learn your solfege too!! Quite often in orchestral literature (if using older parts), the keys are given do, re, mi, mi bemol, fa, sol, and
la. Since Bb horns are relatively modern, you won't see a solfege equivalent for Bb parts. If you ever see "trompete en H", hold onto your chairs. That's a B natural transposition.
They don't happen very often but when they do, it'll throw you for a loop everytime!

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bruckner 8
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, sometimes the composer didn't have an intended trumpet at all. By the late nineteenth century, it was comon practice to write brass parts in such a way as to avoid the use of key signatures. The thinking was that trumpet and horn players had relied on crooks so much in the past that they couldn't read a key signature anyway (not far from the truth, even today ), so the goal was to keep them in C as much as possible. Thus if the piece is in the key of E (like Strauss's Don Juan), the trumpets are in E, and when it modulates, they just change the trumpet transposition to keep the key simple. Wagner and Dvorak did this a lot. No one actually changed crooks anymore with the invention of valves, according to the Dauverne treatise, among other things. It would be impossible: if I remember correctly, there's a spot in the New World Symphony that changes from trumpet in E to E-flat to C in a matter of measures! I've had some fast mute changes before, but come on!

Note that this isn't what happens in Tchaikovsky: he just wrote for the instruments he thought people played. To me, the only really hard part of Capriccio Italien is the cornet solo, which ends up being particularly nasty on C trumpet. It lies a whole lot better on B-flat (especially B-flat cornet), as others have suggested, but I've always just sucked it up and played it on C like a big man.

B8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZeroMan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-01-20 09:30, Bruckner 8 wrote:
Actually, sometimes the composer didn't have an intended trumpet at all. By the late nineteenth century, it was comon practice to write brass parts in such a way as to avoid the use of key signatures. The thinking was that trumpet and horn players had relied on crooks so much in the past that they couldn't read a key signature anyway (not far from the truth, even today ), so the goal was to keep them in C as much as possible. Thus if the piece is in the key of E (like Strauss's Don Juan), the trumpets are in E, and when it modulates, they just change the trumpet transposition to keep the key simple. Wagner and Dvorak did this a lot. No one actually changed crooks anymore with the invention of valves, according to the Dauverne treatise, among other things. It would be impossible: if I remember correctly, there's a spot in the New World Symphony that changes from trumpet in E to E-flat to C in a matter of measures! I've had some fast mute changes before, but come on!

Note that this isn't what happens in Tchaikovsky: he just wrote for the instruments he thought people played. To me, the only really hard part of Capriccio Italien is the cornet solo, which ends up being particularly nasty on C trumpet. It lies a whole lot better on B-flat (especially B-flat cornet), as others have suggested, but I've always just sucked it up and played it on C like a big man.

B8


OK.... let me change the subject slightly again and narrow it down to the Cappricio Italien.

I understand the part is written for pairs of trumpets and cornets, with the big fanfare at the start of the piece for trumpet and the cantelina (sp?) part towards the middle for the two cornets. If Tchaikovsky wrote that part for two cornets in Bb, what is so wrong with using the intended instrument? I know orchestral trumpeters just love their C trumpets, but some things do sound prettier on the cornet.

Also, since the cornet was a valved instrument from it's inception, did composers write for cornet in Bb or A only, or do those who like to use cornets when indicated have to occasionally struggle with some challenging transpositions? I know that in the original Arban text, Arban writes about changing to other keys on the cornet and how the different keys other than Bb or A effect the tonal characteristics of the instrument.

I know some of the history behind the Cappricio Italien..... supposedly Tchaikovsky wrote the piece after a trip to Italy. During the trip he stayed a few nights in a hotel right across from some military barracks and was treated to trumpet fanfares every morning and at night. Some of those fanfares made thier way from his memory onto the Capriccio, and since he was a "Continental style" composer, the trumpet parts were marked in the traditional style.

I hope I'm not digressing the subject too much with these addition/questions. To return to the subject of transposing and learning how to do it, how would one rate the following texts in order of usefulness and difficulty when it comes to transposing for the trumpet:

Broiles- Have trumpet will transpose
(same author)- Transposition for orchestral trumpeter
Caferrelli - forgot the title
Sachse- 100 Etudes for transposition

For those familiar with those exercise books, which one(s) will help prepare someone for the challenging tranpositions first referenced at the start of this thread?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bruckner 8
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeroMan wrote:
Quote:

OK.... let me change the subject slightly again and narrow it down to the Cappricio Italien.

I understand the part is written for pairs of trumpets and cornets, with the big fanfare at the start of the piece for trumpet and the cantelina (sp?) part towards the middle for the two cornets. If Tchaikovsky wrote that part for two cornets in Bb, what is so wrong with using the intended instrument? I know orchestral trumpeters just love their C trumpets, but some things do sound prettier on the cornet.


ZeroMan: Tchaikovsky actually wrote the Capriccio for two trumpets in E and two cornets in A -- which is the root of the problem, as the cornet solo is pitched in C-sharp concert! (It's written in E major) There aren't very many A cornets around these days, so using the "intended instrument" isn't that easy. Using B-flat cornets would (as has been said in this thread before) put that solo in E-flat major, and that would be great as long as a.) you have access to a cornet, and b.) the conductor doesn't say anything about the sound -- and he might if he's used to hearing it on trumpet. The piece does get played with mixed trumpets and cornets a lot these days, though.

Quote:

Also, since the cornet was a valved instrument from it's inception, did composers write for cornet in Bb or A only, or do those who like to use cornets when indicated have to occasionally struggle with some challenging transpositions? I know that in the original Arban text, Arban writes about changing to other keys on the cornet and how the different keys other than Bb or A effect the tonal characteristics of the instrument.

I know some of the history behind the Cappricio Italien..... supposedly Tchaikovsky wrote the piece after a trip to Italy. During the trip he stayed a few nights in a hotel right across from some military barracks and was treated to trumpet fanfares every morning and at night. Some of those fanfares made thier way from his memory onto the Capriccio, and since he was a "Continental style" composer, the trumpet parts were marked in the traditional style.


Typically you see cornet parts in A, because that was the more prevelant instrument in the nineteenth century. You will also find cornet parts in B-flat, C, or even G -- and maybe even some other weird keys -- but that's usually because the composer was writing for a specific orchestra that used specific instruments. The "rules" I mentioned earlier about keeping the part in C didn't really apply to the cornet as they did to the trumpet. In other words, cornet players actually saw key signatures, while trumpet players would not have. After all, in their heyday, trumpet and cornet players were different folks coming from different traditions, quite unlike today.

Quote:

I hope I'm not digressing the subject too much with these addition/questions. To return to the subject of transposing and learning how to do it, how would one rate the following texts in order of usefulness and difficulty when it comes to transposing for the trumpet:

Broiles- Have trumpet will transpose
(same author)- Transposition for orchestral trumpeter
Caferrelli - forgot the title
Sachse- 100 Etudes for transposition

For those familiar with those exercise books, which one(s) will help prepare someone for the challenging tranpositions first referenced at the start of this thread?


Those are all great books, but you don't really need any particular set of etudes to practice transposition, although some of those contain some excellent advice. Just take any etude book you have, like Concone or Getchell, and pick a key. Then play it again in a differnt key. Then switch keys line by line. Then move on to harder etudes and repeat. I know it's blasphemous to suggest that a trumpet player not go out and buy a new book or five when approaching a new playing skill, but really, any music can be transposed!

B8


[ This Message was edited by: Bruckner 8 on 2003-01-20 16:08 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Bruckner 8 on 2003-01-20 16:13 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZeroMan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruckner 8,

Thanks for the information. Suggesting that a trumpeter need not go out and buy a new set of books isn't nearly as blasphemous as suggesting that a trumpeter will have to go out and buy a new mouthpiece or a new instrument for a particular situation. Not having to buy new books will be easier on my pocket.... I was planning on getting the books by Broiles, esp. the first because I heard it has some nice music to apply transposition lessons to.

At the risk of really spinning this thread away from the topic, I've heard that conductors are asking or expecting cornet parts to be played on cornets, rotary valve instruments to be played on romantic German repertoire, etc. As I'm a beginner with zero playing experience in an orchestra, I wonder how the situation is. A few months ago I asked if orchestral players are using cornets as indicated, and the thread sort of died after someone posted a long explanation as to why the flügelhorn is the best modern substitution for the posthorn in the Mahler 3.

It was a killer digression, just like what may happen here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

interesting points in the discussion so far! I must confess that I also chose to blatantly play everything in the Capriccio on my trusted C trumpet! I am even so lazy as not bothering taking out my Bb from my double trp gig-bag before the solo, even though I have plenty of time to do so. True, Eb major is an easier key than Db major, but having spent X years on Arban scales and etudes, this should not be an end-of-the-world challenge for moderately advanced trumpeters! Also, if we get nerdy enough, one may point out that using C trumpet one avoids the downwards lip slurs: D to Bb in the first phrase of the solo (becomes C to Ab on C trp) and F top line to Bb below in the middle of the second phrase (becomes Eb to Ab). Well, the finger-challenged among us may argue the exact opposite, that you save 2 fingering changes in the lick by using a Bb instrument!

As for using a cornet, by all means had I had one!! Actually my first instrument was a dreadful Chinese cornet, but I don't seem able to locate it anymore, I might have donated it to someone. I knew a trumpeter in Paris who possesses a remarkable cornet with slides to change it in C, Bb and A. He was always fidgeting the instrument in rehearsals to find the easiest set-up!! Actually, the other players in my section have cornets, as brass bands or "korps" as they call it in Norwegian, are hugely popular around these latitudes; but I don't intend to graciously give away the part, so unless I get to loan a cornet, the audience will have to bear with a C trp!

Pierre.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Orchestral/Chamber Music/Solo All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group