JAZZ VS. ACADEMIA

[stukvalve]

i know i will get burned.... but i think most universities are teaching jazz the wrong way.
i think jazz shouldnt be taught with chalk boards, grade books, theory texts, red pens ... and stuff of that sort.

dorian, mixolydian, ionian.
blues scale
patterns
analyzing
modes

why are highschool band directors using jazz ensemble "packs" books and stuff to try to teach the kids how to swing? i believe most of this is unnecessary, and blatantly wrong.

can you swing? can you phrase? phrasing .. space... listening how often do you hear those words being used, in relation to oh,.... lets say ..
"bebop scale?" i think that all you need to make yourself a fine jazz player is...
#1 CD player
#2 tape recorder
#3 jam sessions
#4 piano
#5 a good musician/mentor to answer your quesitons
#6 Recordings galore
#7 responsibility/social skills

this is the way i think it should be. i liked the IAJE convention because all the concerts. but in so many ways jazz education is a strange animal, and i believe there is a better way to approach it all. _________________
"What could I say to you that would be of value, except that perhaps you seek too much, that as a result of your seeking you cannot find." -Siddhartha to Govinda; Herman Hesse

[ This Message was edited by: stukvalve on 2004-01-27 15:30 ]

[elbobogrande]

It's not just Jazz, Stukvalve... It's a lot of Music Education, in my opinion. But... You have to consider the practicality of things. It all comes down to the parents/government wanting grades that "prove" that the students are learning. How does a teacher grade a jam session???...
_________________
theblueone2002(AT)aol(DOT)com
"What? You mean to tell me that Rimsky and Korsakov were both named Nicolai?"

[PH]

Of course, Russell Gunn learned all of the stuff you disparage in his high school years. Then he forgot it (or stored it in his unconscious). He went through what was at that time probably the finest high school jazz program in the USA, East St. Louis Lincoln H.S. I am pretty sure I remember him a a student at Aebersold camps back in the '80s as well.

Don't paint with such a broad brush. Of necessity, you base your evaluation of jazz in schools on your own experience. I am sorry that your path sucked to this point and hope things work out for you.

[wiseone2]

Jimmy Heath got a Doctorate from Juilliard last year. Victor Goines heads the jazz studies program.
Kenny Barron retired from Queens College in NYC.
The New School has a faculty that reads like a Who's Who of jazz in NYC.
All over America schools that theach jazz are doing a better job.
I think you should do more research.
Wilmer

[pfrank]

While I'm sympathetic with the Stikvalve's opinion here, the factors listed aren't enough. What it would take is a situation like existed in the 30s and 40s: jazz is (or informs) the popular music of the times, there are thousands and thousands of horn players with good employment opportunities and fine jazz mentors exist in abundance.

The problem with schools and courses is that they have to create a "product" to teach. The product has to have rules and guidelines. In other words, the product is limited. When "jazz" came from the streets, it, like the world, was vast and there were many roads to "Rome" ("Rome" being proficiency in jazz) All "jazz" teachers are well intentioned. They know that they can't replace the experience of growing up in the pre-TV age, but they do their best.

While "jazz" music is suffering from a lack of institutional support (unlike "classical" music which is institutionally endowed, so a "dead"* art form is still alive) CREATIVITY is alive and thriving. In fact, (like love), it can't be stopped! I hope that IMPROVISATION will continue to exist in some form, and the evidence is that it does! It doesn't have to be syncopated and follow tin-pan-alley chord patterns!
There are many artists making improvisation based music now-a-days., It's just that the language that catagorizes has not caught up!

* by saying "dead", I mean 1. relating to present technology (the quill and parchment being replaced by the computer and tape machine), 2. available: how many new classical composers get their stuff played and recorded? After a classical composer leaves academia, how does he/she make a living without "selling out"? They must stay in academia/institutional land as a teacher in order that their student's ensembles play their pieces. Otherwise, they have to pay out of their own pockets.

[PH]

I teach classes and ensembles at my university. I teach improv lessons and often use textbooks as resources. I teach at Aebersold summer workshops. I am also a serious player.

No serious player or teacher would ever dream of telling you that sitting in a classroom under flourescent lights looking at **** in a book will make you a player. Jazz is about the hands on passing of the music from one generation to the next. So...

In addition to working gigs with my peers and MY OWN mentors (people like Jamey Aebersold) I have a working quintet that rehearses and gigs and is made up of students from the school between the ages of 19 and 25 (the ages of my own children!). They can learn ABOUT the music from me in class. They can learn the music by playing alongside me.

As Blakey said, "When these get too old I'll get me some new ones!"

That's the way it is. It is actually the way it has always been. I am sorry that every educational situation isn't as good for the young jazz musician as the one I am trying to create.

Don't stereotype.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-02-19 11:10 ]

[Larry Smithee]

Well said PH. I heard Russell Gunn on a few occasions (I'm from St. Louis originally) and I experienced Ron Carter's East St. Louis High School Band numerous times. They even played a blues chart I wrote once. It would be hard for TH members fully appreciate Ron Carter's teaching. He has a unique approach to things, for sure. But it works and works consistently well. His bands just swing their butts off. You hear them, look and notice how young the kids are, and just shake your head in disbelief at what your hearing. Of course it's not just the ensemble that's so good (which it is), but those kids can play and improvise jazz. I mean really play. It's scary, actually. Of course there are other East St. Louis High School bands accross the nation too that can play. It really boils down to good teaching and the ability of teachers not only teach well, but to motivate and turn on their students to the music and make it accessible and relivant. That's a great skill. Of course it's always easier to knock music education and expound on how lame it all is.
Larry Smithee

[tryingtolivethelife]

wasn't that before the confermation recording?? with Cliff? "Keeps the mind active"?? See that is art Blakey one of my friends said it was Max Roach, but he dosn't play anything like Max... cluttered drumming like Art. What CD is it on?? PH??

And as for music school, in edmonton there is a music school that has a jazz based curriculum. I went there for a term... but well cash problems ended all that. It was a good experience althouh you had to take english which pissed me off a bit, took time away I could be practicing. And our Ensemble teachers aproach is to insult you until do things his way without a single question. To make you feel bad about your playing... but the head of the piano department is the most inspired improviser and the head of the guitar department plays everything he wants to always without a single obsticle between him and his instrument. One of the sax teachers played with Joe Lavano for a while and is seen as on par with him, so the best learning comes from hearing them play. Or if your lucky enough to have one of them kick your butt all the way through some changes. I agree that the school would work better if there was less "class" and more jamming with the teachers and other students... But it is important to make it a college course some how right? And I think that some of my best learning was sitting down with a pencil while Mr. Austin talked about the way he saw the chords to paticular song. Or listening to Mr. Carigns talk about what a horn player should do in a small ensemble. But as always in college so many spend to little time actually working and so much time just trying to get laid. Such is life I guess huh, hahaha. Its too bad that the mentor system is so limited these days... jazz doesn't get around quite like it once did, I think a good music college is the next best thing. I mean having learned as much as I have online from PH I could only imagine what one could pick up from him in a single class.

[PH]

If you are in Edmonton, in or out of school, you should also give someone like P.J. Perry the feeling that you might be a stalker! That is part of how this thing works.

Art says that on, "A Night at Birdland", which is a two volume CD with Blakey, Clifford, Lou Donaldson on alto sax, Doug Watkins on bass, and Horace Silver on piano. It is one of the great jazz records of all time, sloppy ensembles and all.


[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-02-19 13:49 ]

[musicmonkey]

Miles Davis dropped out of Juliard because he said it wasn't the way he wanted to learn (at least that's what he claims in his autobiography). Then again, he certainly didn't put down or regret the content of what he was studying. He simply thought he could learn better from other musicians like Bird and Diz rather than from teachers in a classroom.

I think how a student learns best varies dramatically, but the content of what each student learns should be relatively similar. So, if you want to learn music through experience, good; if it works for you, that's even better.

But, don't reject the philosphy of classroom education. For some people (like my band director) classroom education and dedication do more than just experience ever could.

So, I'll respect your learning style if you respect mine. In the end, whether we acknowledge it or not, we are both learning chords, scales, technique: music theory. Just because you learn better one way is not reason to attack an alternative learning style.

mm

[PH]

Of course, Julliard didn't do jazz back in those days. (They don't today either, IMHO.)

[wiseone2]

The Juilliard Jazz Ensemble is appearing at Birdland right now.
It has what no other school has,New York is Juilliard's home.
It is 2003, not 1943:-)
Wilmer

[ This Message was edited by: wiseone2 on 2003-02-19 21:40 ]

[stukvalve]

[ This Message was edited by: stukvalve on 2004-01-27 15:32 ]

[kzem]

I think you're missing a big point, however. One reason schools like UNF and UNT (among MANY others) do well is because of the sheer number of quality players they attract. The schools also bring in many pros to help mentor and motivate the students (which would be very challenging to do "on the street"). While I was at UNT, I saw concerts/masterclasses by (and I'm only naming ones off the top of my head here) Bobby Shew, Tim Hagans, Horace Silver, Byron Stripling, Harry Connick, Doc Cheatham, Joe Lovanao Maria Schneider, Steve Swallow, and John Abercrombie. There's no way I would have been able to get that kind of motivation and instruction that easliy without going to school. Schools are also a fantastic resource- they provide many willing players to learn, grow, and perform with, they have libraries full of recordings, and endless amounts of music and equipment to use. But it still remains up to the student to practice and use these facilities to his or her advantage.

Kurt Z

[David]

I went to Florida Atlantic University in the mid-70s. The jazz professor there, Bill Prince, was for real. He toured with Buddy Rich twice. Once on solo alto sax - once on solo trumpet. He could play a half dozen instruments at the pro level. Most of our charts were his transcriptions - he would listen to a recording and write down the parts. He had a PhD - not honorary, but earned - I believe his dissertation was on improvisation.

I think he is currently at the University of South Florida.

[stukvalve]

i know bill...
he is one of my teachers here at UNF. he just released a cd called happy thoughts, where he plays everything. i mean, the entire recording is him just overdubbed over himself. the guy is great! and he can play with some crust too, because he came from detriot .... and he survived buddy!
_________________
"It's not about working hard, It's about being organized." -Wynton Marsalis

matzentrpt@hotmail.com

[wiseone2]

The scene for young players is so different today than it was in mine.
I grew up in Philly. There were many clubs around. Pep's, The Showboat,The Bluenote and many more.
The legends of the music were alive and you could see them set after set.
The kids in South Philly would become legends.
Bobby Timmons, Tootie Heath, Ted Curson, Henry Grimes were some of the fellows who came by and played at our house on Wharton Street.
There was music in the air.
It is not like that today!
Young players must study recordings not hear the music as it is created.
The Universities of Blakey, Adderley,Silver have closed down forever,but there are places that are filling in.
Many schools have jazz programs for the gifted young player.
Look around, they are there.
Wilmer