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Help with tongue defect please...


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mrwho3421
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbacon wrote:
"Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever?"

I don't believe that's true.


Hickman always told us Mendez was prouder of the recording of the Arbans single toungue exercises than anything else he ever recorded. He double toungued everything over 90 BPM I believe. So, if he really used this KTM method and this method is the best touguing method out there, why was his single toungue so slow?
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hipster wrote:
dbacon wrote:
"Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever?"

I don't believe that's true.


On the album _The Legacy_ there is a recording of Mendez saying he had one of the slowest single tounges ever. This, starting at an early age, led him to develop a really really crisp and clear double tounge.

Question for Mr. Mohan, on the 16th notes at 144bpm did you mean that each 1/16th note was a beat or each 1/4note was at 144?


Mendez had a slow single tongue when young, but along with a his double tonguing ability, he also developed a good, rapid single tongue capability.

I mean at a tempo of 144 quarter notes per minute.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why don't you guys stop jerking each other off and try to help the dude with his student's problem?
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mrwho3421
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Hipster wrote:
dbacon wrote:
"Do you know that Rafael Mendez had one of the slowest single tonguing ever?"

I don't believe that's true.


On the album _The Legacy_ there is a recording of Mendez saying he had one of the slowest single tounges ever. This, starting at an early age, led him to develop a really really crisp and clear double tounge.

Question for Mr. Mohan, on the 16th notes at 144bpm did you mean that each 1/16th note was a beat or each 1/4note was at 144?


Mendez had a slow single tongue when young, but along with a his double tonguing ability, he also developed a good, rapid single tongue capability.

I mean at a tempo of 144 quarter notes per minute.



I hope professor Hickman chimes in. He always said that Mendez NEVER had a fast single toungue.

Yes we should help the original poster. I think Mr Mohans comments sparked a flame with most of us since most people DON'T use the method in which he is claiming is the best.
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well firstly, a very big 'thank you' to all the posters who have taken such an interest in my attempts to teach little 'Tilly' and who have given me much to think about and sift thru.....I could not have gained such assistance anywhere else and I thank you all very much.

After reading the posts up to John Mohan's first item outlining his 'KTM' method, I decided to start on the double-tonguing which I teach quite early anyway as it is an essential skill for UK band playing. The only change to usual is to get Tilly to keep her tongue touching her lower front teeth. I found that it was/is quite difficult to play 'Chitty chitty Bang bang' in this manner so Tilly and I have made a pact that we will both practice this and see who gets there first! Our session had a lot of laughter and giggles but I could tell that Tilly thinks that it might work for her.

I got to have a better look at her tongue and can now see that she actually has two tongue tips rather than the tip missing as I thought,...the 'gap' is caused by the vestigal space between her 'two' tongues and ther is a very pronounced 'seam' or groove up her tongue which is the remains of the separation.

Although Tilly is a kid with a very sunny disposition and steel determination, as mentioned in my earlier post, I can see a lot of underlying tension that she might not make the grade. This is a youngster who came to the band with her older sisters (flute and horn) when she was five and told me she would be playing the cornet. She will be nine at Christmas and started on cornet in February. Her mother tells me that she can always be found every morning at 6.30am sitting on her bed oiling and polishing her cornet ready to start practicing as soon as the rest of the family wakes up!

In July 2008 the band will travel to the USA to play with 'President's own Band' in Washington,....Tilly mentions this often and tells me she "will be there"....

The methods of 'tonguing' mentioned in all your interesting posts have caused me to think about my own methods as a cornet soloist and I now realise that in British brass bands we commonly use several methods according to the music in hand,...I DO use what people here call "tip tonguing", as do most UK soloists, but in doing so my tongue does not 'oscillate' back and forth but 'flexes' slightly up and down,...the tip is placed differently according to style, idiom and repertoire etc....in double tonguing I sort of 'shuffle' my tongue behind my upper teeth. For UK band playing a very clear articulation is a basic requirement and I don't see this as similar to any orchestral style. Also, most trumpet players in the UK don't need the same veratility of articulation that cornet players here must use on a day to day basis.

Once again, thank you all so much for your great response.
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing Tilly's motivation. Don't fail to let us know when the time is here and her band plays with The President's Own.

Dave
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Mlockman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if this is a bit off topic. I just reciently switched to the anchor-tounge from the tip tonguing. I like the anchor-tounge much, much better. Everything is more secure nad the attachs are not ,well attacks but a nice start to the notes. One question, how do you double or tripple tongue with the anchor-tounge concept? If we need another thread OK.
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

I’m really enjoying reading about the dedication that you have in helping Tilly to achieve her goals!

Quote:
we will both practice this and see who gets there first!


I’m about 7 months ahead of you as far as adopting this “dorsal” or “anchor” or KTM style of tonguing. Recently, I responded to some on-line and off-line posts regarding this topic and this might be helpful to both you and your student.

I wish you the best of luck!


Quote:

The original poster wrote:
I think I know what anchor tonguing is.

I thought I did too!


AND
What is dorsal or KTM style of articulation?

Quite a few months ago I read a post by gms979 (Greg) on the Trumpet Master web site regarding the KTM (K-Tongue Modified) tonguing approach advocated by Claude Gordon. This was right after the Jens Lindemann masterclass in Arizona that I attended where Jens mentioned that he used an anchor tongue approach (especially in the higher register). Just after this Manny Laureano and Peter Bond commented on-line that they too articulate in this manner.

Have a look at this link for more details about this style of articulation in a topic called Strict practice routine?. I think it's important to highlight what Manny Laureano clarified in the link:

    "I've always disliked the term 'anchor tonguing'. The immediate thought conjured up is of making the tongue do something immobile which, to me, is counterintuitive. It's why I highlighted the word "Gently" in my original post. The tongue needs to be used in a flexible, easy-going way not cemented to any part of the mouth."


I had heard about this concept for years, but when I tried it once in passing years ago, it just seemed impossible.

Well, after reading the post by gms979, the timing seem to be right, and since I didn�t have any ensembles or real playing commitments, I decided that I would experiment with this KTM variation of tonguing again.

What I found shocked me!

I had always assumed that tonguing was simply a means to articulate a phrase (based on my many years of playing). Well, when I lightly touched my tongue to my bottom lip, I quickly discovered that more "stuff" started to vibrate which translated into a more vibrant and "forward" sound.

There are certainly coordination issues involved when adapting this articulation style, but the immediate benefit (for me at least) was a dramatic increase in vibrancy with less effort in overall sound production. I had a pretty vibrant sound to start with, but this just blew me away!

It may be that I was just ready for this approach. My general approach to sound production is MUCH more relaxed than when I was in school (and even many years after school). I can see why someone trying this articulation approach with a "tighter" overall set up might dismiss it as being "not worth the effort".

Another thing that I discovered by articulating in this way is that I now understand what people are talking about when they allude to the tongue acting like a nozzle. With this style of articulation it almost feels like the thumb over the end of the hose! I never related well to the hose analogy before trying this articulation approach.

Anyway, hope this helps.


Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona





Another poster (a teacher) contacted me offline and wrote:

Quote:

Derek,

I have tongued this way for years not realizing what it was called.

I have always called it an "orchestral articulation." It developed in me from listening to great orchestral players. So, it came to me through sound concept, not anything physical.

The problem is, I like to impart this to my students and it takes forever to give it to them through my favored sound modeling techniques. About the only thing physical I have been comfortable telling them is to keep the sound and articulation "out front" and "ping" the fronts of the notes. I also chant this mantra a lot: make sure you are "pinging, ringing and singing!" These are concepts and often a bit confusing to some students.

If there was something simple and straightforward I could tell them to start using this style of tonguing more quickly I would try it. I'm of course concerned about going down the "paralysis through analysis" path with them.

Any advice?



And I responded with this:

Quote:

This articulation revelation in my playing has been very intriguing to both me and my instructor. As shocked as I have been with the transformation, he too is amazed with the clarity and evenness in the sound from one note to the next. The sound just takes on so much more vibrancy when I have an articulated line!

I played a reading session with my Wind Ensemble a couple of weeks ago (new Jr. High and High School pieces offered through Music Mart to allow band directors to hear a finished product) and a community player that I hadn't met before happened to sit in. I commented to him that I had gone through a wholesale change in my playing over the past 5 months and described to him what it was. He tried what I described and was literally unable to make a sound! His overall playing style was extremely tight, and while he could play REALLY HIGH, he was a very average player at best.

I mention this story because with many players I think there would need to be some prerequisite work that takes place before this articulation style should ever be mentioned (I'm sure you know that, but I'm just thinking this through for the first time). For the player that has a more relaxed approach to sound production but has a more covered, back of the mouth sound when articulating, I would simply ask them to observe where their tongue is in their mouth. Then say, "What would happen if you let your tongue completely relax and melt into the bottom of your mouth? Is the tip of the tongue touching the front bottom teeth? Maybe also touching the bottom lip just a little bit? Can you play a note with a breath articulation with your tongue in this position, just gently touching somewhere between your bottom teeth and lower lip?"

If they can do that first step and find it to be comfortable and the sound is very similar or more vibrant then before, then I think you've got a player that's ready to experiment with this style of articulation. Tell them that the weird tingle and buzz that they feel in their tongue will go away in time.

I would say that after they experiment with this feeling for several weeks you could move to the next step. In the post that I linked to this message, Manny Laureano wrote:

    "If you GENTLY place your tongue's tip at the ridge between the bottom of your bottom teeth and the gum line (or even a tad lower if you like) you can speak quite normally. Say "Time to Talk Turkey to Turtles in Tutus", it's not terribly difficult, if it at all, to say."


Get them to practice speaking this phrase, and then to "sing" their music while articulating in this way. It's very new and awkward at first, but with a little practice it will feel easier.

At this point, I would have them try to put the articulation into play on the horn. First a second line G with the breath attack (tongue lightly on the lower lip). Now do this from Peter Bond:


  • Step 1. (Sit up straight, take a proper breath, and) Speak or sing "tu-tu-tu-tu-tu." [with the new placement of the tongue - My EDIT]

  • Step 2. Place the lips around the outside of the mouthpiece (as if emptying water from the horn) and gently blow a pattern of 4 or 5 quarter notes, articulating the same way. The result should be a sort of "slapping" sound and feel in the mouth.

  • Step 3. Place the mouthpiece on the lips normally and play the same pattern, articulating THE SAME WAY as in steps 1 & 2, on an easy pitch (low C, for instance). Hint: Keep the lips very relaxed, and let the notes "fall out of your face" into the mouthpiece (rather than trying to blow them through the horn). It will likely feel weird, sloppy, and/or out-of-control; this is because it's different. Students often experience it as loud and grotesque; this is because they are accustomed to blowing so hard, and when the chops are finally relaxed, the result can be a sound so loud that they scare themselves. This is correct; it simply illustrates how little physical strength is really needed to play the trumpet. The softer the lips are, the more quickly and more easily they respond. Simply back down on the air pressure to return to the world of normal dynamics, but keep that "noisy" feel at the mouthpiece.



If they are successful, great! Then you need to let them know that while there are real benefits to be gained from articulating in this way, there is a long road to coordinate this new technique. Probably MANY months for most players. They will probably notice that K tonguing is also more forward in their mouths and has greater clarity than ever before. They will also find that after the general motion has been developed, then "letting go" and letting the tongue do what it knows how to do will be a challenge. When this finally happens, velocity will improve greatly.

I hope this makes sense. I'm one to analyze the process, not the physical manipulation. But for me, I would have never even tried articulating in this way if I hadn't read about it in detail from players that I respect!

Good luck!


Derek

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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Derek, that's the most thoughtful writing I've seen on the subject. I moved to dorsal tonuing a couple of years ago and it's been a total positive for my playing.

Off topic, but I later moved the additional step to TCE, with my tongue pushing against the back of my lower lip. Beginning dorsal tonguing behind my lower teeth was an unintended transitional step that greatly facilitated TCE for me. Your treatise will help me move others through the steps, as it CAN seem impossible at first.

Dave
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Mlockman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you gentlemen!
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update;

Tilly can now tongue as well with 'anchored tongue' as she could with conventional or 'tip' tonguing. She keeps telling me she can "feel it getting faster"....

For myself, I can play 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang' just a fraction faster than Tilly which is essential to keep her chasing me! However, I'm currently playing the 'Post horn Gallop' (as post horn soloist) with my brass band and getting back to a good double tonguing technique with anchored tongue is 'challenging'.......
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Jim-Wilson
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Nov. 2006 Bob Stevenson wrote:

Quote:
In July 2008 the band will travel to the USA to play with 'President's own Band' in Washington,....Tilly mentions this often and tells me she "will be there"....


Bob, this thread was referenced in a current thread and I really enjoyed reading of your experiences with this young lady. It brings up the question, how has she done over the long-term? Is her dream coming to pass? Any follow-up you may have would be greatly anticipated.

Jim
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Holyoke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Mendez slow single tongue Reply with quote

No way, if you hear him doing the Mendelsohn Concerto or any other piece where he is double tonguing very fast, the single toungue has to be half the tempo and that is very fast single tounging. I have been a solo player for many years and my double tonguing became so exact that no one could tell if I was single or double tonuging and I have to date used it because of the ease even in passages where it is not needed.
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MisterE
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Anyone a baseball fan out there? Why did Nolan Ryan throw at 103mph? Was it strength? NO! At about a very average 60" and 180 lbs he was anything but WWF powerhouse athlete. Goose Gossage also thew at the same speed but was almost 6 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier (NFL material for sure). Randy Jones threw "junk" at around 63 mph and was just about as hard (or harder) to hit as Ryan or Gossage. Was he just not as strong, dedicated, or successful because he never reached 100mph? NO! He developed a set of skills which allowed him to "perform" at the highest level while working around the relative speed/power deficit. I believe the same to be true for us trumpeters. All of us have a basic speed/power/reflex ability that might be either lightning fast or way-slow. The trick is to be like Randy Jones and make the best with what you got. Work up the single tounge- strive for the 144-but, hell, be GREAT at slow double tounge just to be sure!!
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trumpetstuff
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for this great advise,
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_dcstep wrote:
"Anchor" or "dorsal" tonguing is the generally accepted description of what I'm describing. It's very descriptive of what goes on in my mouth. Look to pages 135 and 136 of Hickman's Pedagogy book for a clear picture and description. John is describing something slightly different. (It's also valid, but not what many of us think of as anchor or dorsal tonguing).

With anchor tonguing the tongue strikes the bottom of the front teeth for most tonguing (always staying lightly anchored against the back of the lower teeth). It can strike the roof of the mouth, but I reserve that for multi-tonguing, rocking the tongue between the teeth and roof of the mouth. Using the teeth only with a young player will avoid going to a "guh" sound which could lead to throat constriction. ("Guh" is a valid articulation, learned by those of us following Bahb Civiletti's TCE method, but I'd keep a young player away from it until they're fluid on the teeth).

Dave


While I don't agree that "anchor" is a good word to use for the reasons previously described, what you are describing Dave, is exactly what Claude and Herbert Clarke both taught.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrwho3421 wrote:
I think Mr Mohans comments sparked a flame with most of us since most people DON'T use the method in which he is claiming is the best.


You're right. Most people don't advocate using the method of tonguing used by Herbert L. Clarke, Claude Gordon and me.

Most people also don't play at the level that we play (or played) at either.

Something to think about...

Cheers,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterE wrote:
Okay. Anyone a baseball fan out there? Why did Nolan Ryan throw at 103mph? Was it strength? NO! At about a very average 60" and 180 lbs he was anything but WWF powerhouse athlete. Goose Gossage also thew at the same speed but was almost 6 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier (NFL material for sure). Randy Jones threw "junk" at around 63 mph and was just about as hard (or harder) to hit as Ryan or Gossage. Was he just not as strong, dedicated, or successful because he never reached 100mph? NO! He developed a set of skills which allowed him to "perform" at the highest level while working around the relative speed/power deficit. I believe the same to be true for us trumpeters. All of us have a basic speed/power/reflex ability that might be either lightning fast or way-slow. The trick is to be like Randy Jones and make the best with what you got. Work up the single tounge- strive for the 144-but, hell, be GREAT at slow double tounge just to be sure!!


Very good post, in that with the trumpet it is not about brute force, but rather getting the knack or feel of it.

Cheers,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
An update;

Tilly can now tongue as well with 'anchored tongue' as she could with conventional or 'tip' tonguing. She keeps telling me she can "feel it getting faster"....

For myself, I can play 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang' just a fraction faster than Tilly which is essential to keep her chasing me! However, I'm currently playing the 'Post horn Gallop' (as post horn soloist) with my brass band and getting back to a good double tonguing technique with anchored tongue is 'challenging'.......


I am sure glad to hear about Tilly's progress!!!

The passage you wrote about her being up at 6:30am waiting to practice was a really something! This child sounds absolutely adorable.

I wish you wouldn't use "anchor" to describe the tonguing method though. It gives the idea that the tongue should be held tense in the spot, where as it should be relaxed and free (meaning just held lightly there). My teacher Claude Gordon didn't like the word "anchor" being used for this reason, and I don't either for the same reason.

Best wishes,

John
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Clarification Reply with quote

Quote:
...or exterminating violists and saxophonists.


Please clarify, Peter. This sounds like an important goal, I'd hate to think you weren't strongly advocating it

Quote:
Why did Nolan Ryan throw at 103mph? Was it strength? NO! At about a very average 60" and 180 lbs he was anything but WWF powerhouse athlete.


MisterE, the listings I've found for Nolan Ryan show him at a very fit 6'2" and 195 pounds, which certainly puts him in the category of someone who would benefit from their physical strength unlike, say, Pedro Martinez who is closer to your numbers and is regularly injured by the strain of throwing that hard.
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