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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Whoever mentioned the Charlier Etudes...Kudos. I really enjoy some of those "pieces". They teach you to be musical, technical and a good reader all at the same time. Too bad the Charlier book itself is out of print to my knowledge. I still have a photo copy of some of the etudes though. I think No. 2 was the one I found most enjoyable to play.
Oh and as for Clifford playing classical music...It's pretty obvious he could do it and probably played it well. If you listen to some of the cadenzas he does on tracks like "It Might As Well Be Spring" and "You Go To My Head" it becomes especially obvious. Also, a lot of his solos have Arban and H.L. Clarke inspired licks.
[ This Message was edited by: AccentOnTrumpet on 2003-04-16 12:08 ] |
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Larry Smithee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:20 am Post subject: |
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This probably a moot point but...I wouldn't suggest that Clifford didn't have the capacity for dealing with classical music, particularly the technical demands. However, his sound to my ears is way, way off the mark for most classical styles and just lacks the "purity" that most classical trumpet playing requires. His basic core sound simply has too many Afro-Americanisms/characteristics to be well suited for classical music IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I love Clifford and hard bop in particular.
Larry Smithee |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Last slightly off-topic post regarding Brownie...
I was doing a flurry of Don Fagerquist transcriptions the last two weekends and came across a lick I learned years ago from Brownie's solo break on his later recording of Cherokee -- the eighth-note run starting on G on the staff and ending on G above the staff at the beginning of the solo.
The Fagerquist recording was from 2-3 years earlier (and came in a different tune and context), but it made me wonder whether Brownie got it off of Fagerquist, or the lick dates to an earlier performer, or perhaps that it developed independently (not a very complex lick, mind you...just stuck out when I heard it).
(Pat can probably answer this one...!) _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Larry: I hear you, and I definitely think Clifford had a lot of non classical characteristics in tone, but that's because of the style he was using. Who's to say he wouldn't change his tone to fit classical if he were playing it? I mean, Wynton does that. He sounds very different when he plays classical than when he plays jazz music. Completely different styles and you have to make the necessary adjustments. |
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bophead Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 837 Location: portland, oregon
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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On 2003-04-16 12:20, Larry Smithee wrote:
This probably a moot point but...I wouldn't suggest that Clifford didn't have the capacity for dealing with classical music, particularly the technical demands. However, his sound to my ears is way, way off the mark for most classical styles and just lacks the "purity" that most classical trumpet playing requires. His basic core sound simply has too many Afro-Americanisms/characteristics to be well suited for classical music IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I love Clifford and hard bop in particular.
Larry Smithee
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The wrong headed things people say never cease to amaze me. 'His core sound simply has too many Afro-Americanisms/characteristics to be well suited for classical music'???? The man was an Afro American, playing an art form developed by Afro Americans essentially for Afro Americans. I dare say that if he were willing he could play what ever was on the printed page or in his head. What of Clifford's are you playing as well as he did - A better question, 'What body of work have you produced that parallels anything Clifford has done? As I recall the topic of this post was what does it take to be a good jazz player. The answer still remains, I believe - to be a good trumpet player first.
_________________
Earl
To Be or Not to Bop
Kanstul ZKT1500 & Warburton 3XD
Kanstul Burbank Flugel Horn & Warburton 3XFL
Music Ed Maj at WWU fall 2003.
[ This Message was edited by: bophead on 2003-05-25 18:33 ] |
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Xenoman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have a feeling Clifford would take the "Afro-Americanisms/characteristics " out of his playing if he were performing a classical piece. We can only speculate but that is what many other crossover players do... if they could do it I have no doubt a player as great as Clifford Brown could/would do the same.
_________________
-Eric M. Brewington
http://www.jazzician.org
[ This Message was edited by: Xenoman on 2003-04-16 18:54 ] |
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Gillestar1 Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 344
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here is my suggestion...play what you want to play and enjoy playing. Whatever it is, u will need to work on fundamentals.....both Jazz greats and classical greats have great fundamentals. There are no shortcuts past the fundamentals.....right?? _________________ SMILE!! It takes only 17 muscles to smile...43 muscles to frown. Conserve energy. )
Kurt |
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Gillestar1 Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 344
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Could Clifford play classical....C'Mon ppl...give me a break!! That cat could play ANYTHING he WANTED to play....but I am not sure he was interested in Classical. He would have had to change his style, but he had all the tools....GET the tools and you can play anything!! _________________ SMILE!! It takes only 17 muscles to smile...43 muscles to frown. Conserve energy. )
Kurt |
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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That's true...Clifford was one of the most disciplined musicians...I'm sure he could work anything out. He's one of my musical role models. |
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Jarrett Ellis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Agreed... Clifford could play anybody on this forum into the ground in 4 bars, and I bet he'd be good at improv too |
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mark936 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2002 Posts: 1254 Location: Riverside,Calyfornia
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Eric,
how's your playing this week?
all this talk about clifford.
have you heard this one?
Clifford didn't start playing trumpet until his senior year in high school-- when his father gave him his first trumpet. but.... |
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Xenoman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2003-04-20 23:53, mark936 wrote:
Eric,
how's your playing this week?
all this talk about clifford.
have you heard this one?
Clifford didn't start playing trumpet until his senior year in high school-- when his father gave him his first trumpet. but....
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Hey Mark! Thanks for asking. Things are actually going very well. I got some great suggestions on and off list that I plan on trying out. I appreciate everyone's help. _________________ Eric M. Brewington
http://www.jazzbrew.com |
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Strawdoggy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: Carlisle, PA
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Eric,
I find your post very interesting. I have been reading the responses, and found them interesting, too.
I know a lot of players with great technique who can't improvise well, either because they never really wanted to, or just can't do it. Some have become such great players that it is hard for them to start from scratch learning jazz theory, listening in a different way, and hearing themselves sound like novices again. After all, these are really good trumpet players. They know they can sound great playing stuff they are familiar with.
Why not learn a little bit of jazz along with buiding your technique, range, etc.? Experiment and see what you can create. As your technique gets better, so will your ability to improvise. Players can enjoy hearing all aspects of their playing slowly coming together.
I used to think that it was a waste of time trying to teach jazz improv unless the student knew all of their major and minor scales cold. I am beginning to think that I was wrong in doing this in the past. Of course, it sure doesn't hurt to know them!
IMHO one of the biggest obstacles in getting younger players to improvise is overcoming the fear factor. When one is a relatively good player, it can be embarassing to play notes that don't quite fit the changes, or meandering lines. Especially in a group setting. I think that starting early and taking baby steps is a great way to ease into it. Not to open a can of worms for a third time, but that's another reason why I love the Aebersold series - students can practice all night long and sound like caca without worrying about anyone else hearing it.
Of course, having a great technique will help you play what you want. That is once you start hearing things the way you want to. I guess what I am trying to say is that having a great technique won't necessarily make you a creative player, but if you do develop a good ear for changes and learn your theory, that technique is going to take you to greater heights.
Case in point: When I got my MM in trumpet performance I didn't practice any jazz. Nada. No time to get everything else in. The only time I played it was at gigs. I slowly noticed that my facility was getting just a little bit better and it transferred to my jazz playing. I'm no Clifford Brown, I can tell you that, but I did improve. When I mentioned it to my instructor, he just said "good". He doesn't play jazz and really isn't a fan of it.
Whew. Talk about meandering lines. Wordy post. I will be interested to read further what others have to say.
Steve |
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Strawdoggy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 1219 Location: Carlisle, PA
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Help me out here, guys....
Wasn't it Louis Armstrong who, when asked if he could read music said "Only enough so that it doesn't get in the way of making music."
Something like that. |
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ozknozz Regular Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 12 Location: Houston,TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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You must achieve enough technical mastery to play what you hear in your head; if you hear fast passages or high licks, then you must achieve the physical skills to perform them. Do not neglect your ear, nor your basic reading skills, but play what you hear inside.
Above all, don't be afraid to suck! Fear of playing badly stops a lot of players from growing as an improviser. |
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