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The importance of the alpha angle.



 
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drncollazo
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Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: The importance of the alpha angle. Reply with quote

I am told that the alpha angle is the technical term that GR mouthpieces uses to describe mathematically the angle of the mouthpiece wall as it goes from the end of the rim curve and goes into the cup.
As I tested different mouthpieces, this variable became very important. More than anything however, it became very confusing. I am currently using a Bach 9C with a 15-degree alpha angle. I wished to move to the slightly wider Bach 8 3/4 C to discover that it has an alpha angle of 12 degrees. And let me tell you, there is a major difference. Even though their diameters are ever-so-slightly different, their alpha angles make them seem as though they
are remarkably different.
This leaves me wondering why mouthpieces that are supposed to follow some kind of sequential order would be designed to be so different. My impression was that a 1C and a 1 1/4 C would be almost identical or at least very similar. NOT THE CASE!!!

A 1C mouthpiece has an alpha angle of 11 degrees, while the 1 1/4 has an alpha angle of 17 degrees. Why the difference and why is this variable not one considered when testing mouthpieces?
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jscahoy
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's true that the Bach size numbers tell you nothing about alpha angle. And it's not just alpha angle - cups and rims vary between Bach "C" cups. Since they can't really produce a thousand different stock sizes, they mix things up so that most people will be able to find a size that works for them. In my experience, about the only thing you can tell from the size is a sense of feel, in other words a 5C "feels" a little bigger than a 7C, etc.
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B. Scriver
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Joined: 14 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Precisely why the alpha angle drops by one degree in the standard GR Mouthpiece line as the cup volume increases. This makes mouthpiece selection much easier.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 2630

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Mendez. Please continue this thread on the MOUTHPIECES forum.

DH
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hick,
I am sure Mendez would have been interested as well. Didn't want to leave him out.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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B. Scriver
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Joined: 14 Jan 2002
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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just posted more info on the GR Forum Archive. Check out www.grmouthpieces.com and click on the Forum Archive link. Then you will see the links on the left.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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skootchy
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Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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Location: Naugatuck, CT

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always wondered about this. I am not a mouthpiece expert by any means but I have my fair share of "safari's" under my belt... . One of the things that I know is that mouthpiece design comprises a whole lot of factors that have to interplay or rather to correctly coordinate with each other or the mouthpiece won't "balance". I know enough about some of these variables like most of you guys; Rim, alpha angles, beta angles, etc. I know that the relationship between the alpha and beta angles are directly related to each other and to some degree affect the cup depth and width. I guess what I am trying to say in a very simple way is that the hip bone is connected to the knee bone, etc etc. The one variable that I can spot that seems independent to some extent of the others and therefore presumably makes it the cornerstone of mouthpiece design is the throat. The throat size of conventional mouthpieces doesn't seem to have as much latitude as the other components. I mean your talking 26 or 27 for most manufacturers so a lot of the other variables have to revolve around that one. Going from the throat on up the entrance to the throat (Venturi?) seems to pretty much decide the beta angle which in turns appears to decide the alpha angle. Like I said I am not an engineer or anything this is just my take as a lay person so don't taz me bro! I have tried mouthpieces that deviated far from some of these "rules" and they were very unbalanced. So I guess there seems to be a natural flow of events that make mouthpieces work well or not. IMHO....
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skootchy wrote:
I a natural flow of events that make mouthpieces work well or not.


I'd be curious about GR's take on this. Seems like what the math is about?
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B. Scriver
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Joined: 14 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few things about the original posters questions.

"I am told that the alpha angle is the technical term that GR mouthpieces uses to describe mathematically the angle of the mouthpiece wall as it goes from the end of the rim curve and goes into the cup."

Every mouthpiece ever made has an alpha angle. We found the same issues that you are speaking about during a mouthpiece search many years ago, the alphas didn't have a logical progression. At that point GR defined the alpha angle with math to understand the changes as well as cause and effect.

Don't put money on the alpha angles below unless the info came from GR or someone that GR trained. There is also an L1 or relief that plays a big part in this match. Older mouthpiece even with the same part number might have a greatly different alpha angle.

"This leaves me wondering why mouthpieces that are supposed to follow some kind of sequential order would be designed to be so different. My impression was that a 1C and a 1 1/4 C would be almost identical or at least very similar. NOT THE CASE!!!"

Years ago they made a mouthpiece and put a number to it. Most made by hand and eye for a specific player and need. Until the alpha was defined and we assigned numbers to it players were pretty much in the dark. They use a thumb, dime or some gauge with the human eye to find what they needed. The GR standard mouthpiece has a progressive alpha angle change to accommodate this need to find the correct fit.

skootchy wrote:
I a natural flow of events that make mouthpieces work well or not."

"I'd be curious about GR's take on this. Seems like what the math is about?"

GR's take is plastered all over the GR website. This is the reason we spent so much time writing a mouthpiece design program, assigning parameters, and defining the mouthpiece.

GR
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Capt.Kirk
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Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have big full lips like I do alpha angle is super important but if you have thin lips you can get away with a lot more in terms of bad alpha angle! I find that just playing them will let you know all you need to know. It is when ordering blindly that you run into problems. GR has a form they can send you if you cannot go some place and consult with them directly. It will make it a lot less painful. GR speaks geek or engineering and mathematics which is not the same as band geek. Let them worry about the geek speak and just let them help you. As long as I stay with a deep cup almost all the mouthpieces I have tried have the right alpha angle for me. It is just when I start getting into medium and shallow cups that I run into problems. I always knew what the problem was but prior to GR putting the words Alpha angle and beta angle into MP speak I had a hard time expressing that to people! Once you learn the lingo two people that know all the words and their meanings can have a very intelligent conversation and understand each over 100%.
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