• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Stephan Preisinger [Vienna II] rotory Bb



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1605

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Stephan Preisinger [Vienna II] rotory Bb Reply with quote

I recently acquired a Stephan Preisinger Wein II Bb rotory trumpet from a good friend and after doing a little research, found that the company doesn't exist any longer. The horn is in as new condition but plays a little stuffy on certain notes. Not leaking or anything like that, just a bit vague here and there. I'd like to think that after so many years of building my own trumpets and flugelhorns [Scodwell USA] I might be able to figure out how to get it balanced out. but NO. Rotors seem to be a mystery to me and I ask for input from somebody who may have some experience with these horns. Many thanks in advance.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only at Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

I'm quite busy today, so I'll start my post up and will edit, add and revise stuff between students and clients as the day develops.

Probably the rotors are just dirty or aligned badly.
Best way to get the hang of servicing and cleaning the rotors would be to first watch someone working on a French horn or rotary tpt. For you it surely won't be hard to learn at all, but to most other people I would strongly advise to leave this work to a pro.

*So first a disclaimer/warning directed to other TH members*:
It's very easy to damage and scratch a rotor or bend the rotary linkages, so please...
STOP READING MY LONG AND BORING POST HERE and DO NOT OPEN THE LINKS BELOW.
You're probably a great trumpeter, but with all respect, you're most likely not half as good a Handyman as you may want to believe.



Back to Tony,
Before opening the links that give you a clear idea of how to proceed, I'll mention a couple of extra things you'd want to know/check:

1-Open the valve caps and look at how the side of the inner valve caps (also called bearing plates) and the rotory casings are marked with tiny scratches to make sure you'd precisely fit them back to where they should to be. Sometimes the 1st valve bearing plate has one scratch, the 2nd two and the 3rd three, but... most instruments' bearing plates and rotors are coded inside (see #6).

2-Also inside the valve caps, the rotory axles and the bearing plate central rings are marked (normally scratched at 90 degree angles), this time for valve alignment purposes. Everything has to lign up perfectly, both with pressed-down or un-pressed levers. The right spot to adjust alignment is at the stop corks/silicons, at the other side of the valve casing. In case of miss-alignment you'd start cutting extremely thin slices of the involved stop cork just until the marks/scratches on the rotor axle lign up well with the scratches of the central ring of the bearing plate (take care to not cut away too much). If the corks need to be thicker, they'd have to be replaced and then cut to size. I always double check alignment with a bore scope.
Proper alignment on piston trumpets is important, but on rotaries it really can make or break the instrument... Luckely it's easier to align rotors than pistons (at least IMHO).

3-When hammering the rotor out of the casing it is important to use a punch that does NOT have a sharp tip (see 2nd link). Cut or file off the tip if it's sharp; a sharp tip might split the valve! Use a punch that fits inside of the hole, without damaging the inner thread of the rotor; too big a punch will harm the thread, too small can harm the actual valve. I use a 2mm punch with a flat tip for 95% of small rotary instruments and 3mm for larger or older rotors.

4-Make sure to strike very lightly when tapping the rotor out of the casing or when hammering the bearing plates back into place; better striking 10-15 times lightly, than hammering three times with force. Personally I prefer to use a small plastic or raw-hide hammer (NOT like the metal one you see in the 2nd link), similar to the one I use for freeing stuck valve caps.

5-Hold and support the valve casing you're working on from underneath with your left hand; do NOT rest the trumpet on a table when hammering, as you're at risk of bending the trumpet or damaging solder points.

6-After tapping out the bearing plate that holds the actual rotor, you'll see that the rotors and bearing plates are marked with 1, 2, or 3 dots, however, quite often the 3rd rotor and bearing plate are not marked at all (thus marking the plates & rotors with 1 dot, 2 dots, no dots).
Occasionally everything is coded with numbers or scratches, but dots are far more common.

7-When putting everything back together again, personally I don't like to use a plastic block as seen in the second link, but prefer to directly tap onto the bearing plates with a light plastic hammer as described in #4.
Make sure to perfectly align the marks on the bearing plate with the marks on the vale casing (see #1).

Check out these French horn links to get an idea of the tools you need and how to use them, but please note that up/down and front/back as mentioned in the links, should be thought the other way around with rotary trumpets:
http://www.finkehorns.de/English/Pflegeanleitung.html
http://www.finkehorns.de/English/ServiceVentile.html

Everything is easy to show in person, but I find it rather hard to describe in writing.
I'll get back to you later to talk about other possible causes for the stuffyness,

MvW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chapter two (sorry, not for the do-it-yourself-handymen either).
Spots to re-vise when trying to solve stuffyness in rotary trumpets.

1-Does the mouthpiece fit well?
Many rotary trumpets have a differently tapered leapipe receiver. Your ordinary Bach, Yamaha or Schilke might move a bit and might not be held tightly all over the length of the m.piece stem by the receiver. By carefully using a l.pipe receiver reamer you can adjust the way the mouthpiece will fit, but be aware that the mouthpiece will fall in a tad deeper after reaming. This is no problem if the leadpipe doesn't have a rim inside (many older rotary tpts don't have one, so there's no mouthpiece gap), but with more recent models you'd have to be careful to not make the mouthpiece gap too small. If that happens you can "move" or "shave" the inner rim by using a l.pipe receiver mill (Boehmtools, Germany).

2-If the instrument has a leadpipe that can be removed, but doesn't have a flügelhorn-like screw to tightly hold the pipe, then put one of these clamps on the trumpet.
Some tpts have have threaded leadpipes; these are fine also.

3-In general I find that rotary trumpets play, respond and sound better with larger throated mouthpieces (22/24 alike). Special German style mouthpieces can certainly be of help, but are no "must". It is impossible to give any solid advise on the matter as it occurs to be that what works great on one rotary trumpet can be horrible on another...

4-I prefer to revise the entrances of the tuning slide by slightly rounding off the just beginning of the pipes (the inside, that is). This opens up the sound quite a lot, but if you'd go too far... you'll be modifying the bore size over a certain length of tubing and slots will get a tad wider and pitch can get slippery. Not everyone likes this "modification" and it's easy to mess up the blow of the instrument if you'd overdo it....

5-Make sure the tuningslide pipes fit snugly into the trumpet over the entire length of the tube (as with piston tpts, I guess). Expand a bit when necessarry.

6-When looking for production flaws, the procedure would be quite similar to the way you would "run through" a piston trumpet. However, there are a couple of spots to look at that are typical for rotaries:
*Check for solder blobs and rims where tubes meet, especially where the l.pipe goes into the first valve, or where the tube goes out of the 3rd valve towards the tuningslide.
*Check the bore size at the spot where the tuning slide touches the bell tail pipe (tuning slide all in). The bore size should continue exacty the same, but often it gets a couple of thenths of mm smaller at the bell tail end. Expand to right size when necessarry.
*The waterkey holes and the holes of the Vienna octave keys often have a small rim or even a little cap inside of the tube. These are left overs from drilling the hole, but not cleaning it afterwards. Just clean up with a tiny rifler's file through the hole (get rid of the keys first), but DON'T round off the rims (under/over cutting will affect the octave key function negatively) and avoid making the holes bigger.

7-Because of the wider wrap and longer braces, stress is usually not as important a factor as it is with piston trumpets. But it can happen...

I hope this will get you going for a while.
With kindest regards,
MvW

P.S.:
Everything was just my personal experience, taste and opinion, so people can feel free to disagree (after all this is TrumpetHerald, isn't it?).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DH
Veteran Member


Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Post Maarten.

I've been messing with rotary valves for years and years and worked my way through college in a repair shop. On the other hand, most of this was on student model instruments and not top pro horns. But I've got a couple of questions...

First on removing the valve, I always remove the cover, loosen the screw less than one rotation and tap lightly on it. Loosen one more half turn and tap the screw again. Often the bearing plate falls out in my hand and the valve is still inside, held by the screw. It's very important not to unscrew the screw very far before tapping on it or it is possible to bend the screw. I can then remove the screw and the valve falls in my hand.

The other thing is putting the bearing plate back. I've usually set the bearing plate in place with fingers and start putting the cap back on until it is finger tight. Then tap the top of the cap with a rawhide hammer, lightly one time. Re-tighten the cap, tap lightly again, re-tighten, etc. until the cap doesn't tighten anymore. I've thought the advantage to this was the cap putting even pressure around the bearing plate.

Does any of this seem "dangerous"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DH wrote:

#1-I always...loosen the screw less than one rotation and tap lightly on it. Loosen one more half turn and tap the screw again...It's very important not to unscrew the screw very far before tapping on it or it is possible to bend the screw...

#2-...I've usually set the bearing plate in place with fingers and start putting the cap back on until it is finger tight. Then tap the top of the cap with a rawhide hammer, lightly one time. Re-tighten the cap, tap lightly again, re-tighten, etc. until the cap doesn't tighten anymore. I've thought the advantage to this was the cap putting even pressure around the bearing plate.


Hi Dennis,

Yeah, we're talking about different techniques or styles to get to the same result.
At the end of the day every tech will do it the way he/she is most comfortable with.
However, just a couple of remarks and suggestions:

#1-Personally I wouldn't like to use a hammer directly onto the screw, though I understand that you are taking extreme care when doing so.
-The rotor axle is made out of (soft) brass so its thread really can't cope with too much of abuse.
-But also, especially on vintage rotaries, the top screws can bend or break really easily thus causing a lot of extra work and frustration.
-Often rotary trumpets have nicely shaped button type screws that I wouldn't like to strike with a hammer, not even a raw-hide or plastic one.
-Please be aware that on vintage rotaries also the actual axles are quite easy to bend or split.
-Another important reason for using a punch is that your hammer will be further away from the bell and linkages, thus eliminating the risk of accidently hitting something vulnarable. I hold the punch between the thumb and index finger of my left hand, while the other fingers support the valve casing from underneath (it all sounds more complicated than it is, really). A trumpet can be held in one hand like that, but larger instruments like French horns I prefer to rest on my lap (not on a table, like I explained in #5 of my 1st post), with my feet resting on a step in order to raise my lap a bit.
*The 2mm punch that I use, is a $2 tool that can be found in any tool retail shop at the woodwork section. These punches with flat tip are generally used to give a last strike on the head of a nail, whenever you'd want to push the nail a bit further without "denting" the wood around it (furnature making). They come in many sizes, starting off at 1mm.

#2-Yeah fine!
However, if I understand you well, you might risk damaging the thread of the rotor casing...
Personally I prefer to tap in circles on the bearing plate and then check by eye if the rim touches the casing all around. If at the end the rotor doesn't want to be turned by hand (often the case), I put the valve cap into place, close it completely, then open it for 1 eight of a turn or less, and then tap (through my punch! ) on the other side of the rotor to align the bearing plate with the rotor from the inside.
It is important though, to not open the valve cap too far before tapping the rotor, because you would end up getting too much vertical play in the rotor. After this procedure, you'd also want to check if the valve cap can still be un-screwed by hand; if it's too tight, your pair of soft-jaw pliers will help out.


*As a side note I'd like to mention that whenever I do major work on rotors, I often get rid of all the tuning/valve slides and triggers in order to make the instrument a bit lighter in weight and easier to handle. Since you're going to have to turn over the instrument dozens of times, any weight & size reduction is welcome.

Dennis, take care!
And Tony, thanks a zillion for your very kind PM!
If I could be of any help to you, the pleasure was mine.

MvW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1605

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 am    Post subject: Posts Reply with quote

I am most grateful for the responses to my original post and would like to thank them both publicly here. This is exactly what the TH was intended to be for. Big thanks to the forum moderators and responders.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptfrbrains
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 1375
Location: Moers, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using a punch is fine, but using steel nails works extremely well, and to put the bearing plate back on I use a cut off section of a wooden broom handle with a hole drilled into it. This helps getting the plate back on evenly.
The most important part though, is once you've taken everything apart, which I've done hundreds of times, unless you have an ultra-sound cleaner, you've wasted your time. I would strongly suggest bringing the horns to a repairman with ultra-sound cleaning, either assembled or not.

r.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptfrbrains wrote:
...unless you have an ultra-sound cleaner, you've wasted your time...

Roger,

Just a word of warning.
Ultra sonic baths are absolutely fantastic for many things (especially the actual rotors), but can be a bit of a risk for certain instruments.

-Silver-, gold plate and raw brass are fine, but lacquer can often chip off.
The older and harder the lacquer, the higher the risk.
-Relatively new trumpets are okay, but older instruments can have their weaker solder points attacked.
Which is, in case of a complete revision, not always a bad thing; this way you're able to re-vise and re-solder the bad joints. However, it might cause you far more work than you initially wanted to do.
-If there is any evidence of red rot, the ultra sonic bath will "rattle" those spots into real holes.
You'd now have to change those parts at an earlier stage than you wanted to. They often last for many years until they really start to leak.

*I would never choose this method of cleaning on vintage or lacquered trumpets.
With most other instruments it can be really great.

MvW.


Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptfrbrains
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 1375
Location: Moers, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant the valve spindles, Maarten. They're extremely soft and most people scratch the hell out of them when the clean them, but it's extremely difficult to clean them effectively without ultra-sound.

r.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptfrbrains wrote:
I meant the valve spindles, Maarten. They're extremely soft and most people scratch the hell out of them when the clean them, but it's extremely difficult to clean them effectively without ultra-sound.

r.


True that!
I dip them 3 minutes in a liquid that dissolves the green organic stuff, but doesn't harm the brass.

MvW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptfrbrains
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 1375
Location: Moers, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
tptfrbrains wrote:
I meant the valve spindles, Maarten. They're extremely soft and most people scratch the hell out of them when the clean them, but it's extremely difficult to clean them effectively without ultra-sound.

r.


True that!
I dip them 3 minutes in a liquid that dissolves the green organic stuff, but doesn't harm the brass.

MvW.

I've done that, too, and still had bad valve action until it was explained to me by more than one good repairman (Thein & Büchl) that nothing will completely clean the spindles except ultra-sound or an abrasive paste.

r.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
poochie
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 1456
Location: New Jersey,so what!

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger, that liquid that dissolves the green organic stuff must be the German red wine you keep trying to convince me about.
This thread is excellent, I would never attempt any of this myself but it seems that those of us who leave our rotaries hanging on the wall in our lockers until we need them ,only to find the valves frozen,could benefit.
Take care gentelmen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3372

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

poochie wrote:
Roger, that liquid that dissolves the green organic stuff must be the German red wine you keep trying to convince me about.

WHAT?¿?
So you mean he forgot to tell you that German red wine is not meant for oral use?

MvW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColoradoOrch
New Member


Joined: 16 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ten years later: I wonder if this same trumpet has ended up in Colorado? I bought it used from Dillon Music in 2018 and then re-sold it to a professional in the area. The cosmetic condition may have deteriorated a little but the mechanical action felt excellent and the tone was beautiful (although it was my first time playing rotary and I never completely managed to get it in tune everywhere).

Same horn? Or maybe there are a few of these mystery rotaries floating around the US...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group