• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Choking off the air in the throat



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
freaklip
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 123
Location: Wilmington

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Choking off the air in the throat Reply with quote

I don't know if this even makes sense. My son is new to trumpet, and I work with him a lot. He seems like he is choking off the air with his throat. Sometimes I can hear grunting sounds. Seems like he's way too tense from the neck up, and he tires himself out. Are there any good exercises to work on something like that, or is this maybe a phase of early development?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
daDavemeister
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 797
Location: Sonoma, Ca

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe helpful, maybe not... but what I have to say to myself when I fall into the trap of choking off the air: "Don't hold it back. Get as much air to your lips as possible and accept the possibility of missing notes."

I don't know of simpler way to put it.

For me, it was always "trying" to play the right notes that caused problems. Accepting that there might be a train wreck and learning to just let it go has made me into a much, much better player.
_________________
Dave Lindgren
Bach 37 Bb, Bach 229/25H C, Schilke P5-4, Schilke E3L-4, Dotzauer Rotary C, Benge cornet, eBay flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mechanically, if the tip of the tongue is anchored to the back of the lower front teeth and is arched forward, there is almost no way to close the glottis.

But first, breathing has to be correct. Often, neck tension is substituted for good breath support. If your son learns to breathe properly, he will be less inclined to close the throat.

If this seems to be the problem and you would like a simple exercise to establish good breathing habits, send me a PM and I will explain what I mean.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BuckTrump
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(sorry I keep editing)

I can sympathize with the issue of fighting throat tension in trumpet playing. Something that I've worked a lot on is trying to get my trumpet playing to feel as natural as possible. The best way for me to do this is to simply breathe in, and breathe out (imagining a pendulum swinging - it never halts - it just constantly keeps moving). Then I try to keep that same pattern/feeling going with a long buzz on the mouthpiece. If I can make the transition smoothly from my inhale to creating a tension-free buzz, then trumpet playing is much, much easier.

I take this one step further by making sure that I do not "prepare myself" for the notes I am about to play. This comes in many forms (throat and tongue primarily) and happens when my lungs have begun to exhale, but something else tries to keep the air from moving.

The problem for many students is that this is how they have always played. The process of "breathe in, create tension, play" is a cycle that they naturally believe in necessary for playing the trumpet; and that with time/practice it should get better. Getting the student to trust that playing the trumpet is truly as simple as "inhale-exhale-inhale-exhale" is (in my opinion) vital to playing in a relaxed manner. This (to me) is more a matter of redefining the process of playing the trumpet, and less about what exercises to practice.


I could talk about this more, and if I wasn't clear - feel free to PM me.

Best of luck,
Ben
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NDtrumpet
Regular Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Grand Forks, North Dakota

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To sort of go off of bucktrump's idea of proper breathing, is to make sure he is taking breaths from down in his diaphragm. Maynard said to breath from your knees, as silly as that sounds, it holds some truth. if your son is breathing high up in the lungs and raising his shoulders that instantly creates tension, and in turn will close off the throat, which results in less endurance, poor tone, and decreased range. breathing is the key for everything. if something is wrong with your playing start from the beginning, your breathing. hope it helps!
_________________
Yamaha 8310 Custom Z Bb
1947 Conn 80A Cornet
Yamaha 938 FFMGS Rotary C Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maynard said to breath from your knees, as silly as that sounds

No sillier than "breathe form your diaphragm".
One of the examples I give to students is exactly what you are saying, freaklip. If you take a full relaxed breath, allowing you body to expand as it will, the air wants out. If you hold it with your mouth open - it will be your throat that holds the air. Everything from the neck down is perfect, but the throat is causing tension. If you hold the air at the lips, you just release the sound with your tongue. That buoyancy is enough to play up through the staff - above is just a gentle push.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
freaklip
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 123
Location: Wilmington

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are great. Thanks for the help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 10202
Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggest to your son that he relax his stomach/abs rather than tighten them, as many players do thinking this is what produces high notes. In fact, this triggers the valsalva maneuver which tightens the throat and leads to the grunting sound you're hearing. Summing up: suggest he take deep, full but relaxed OH breaths and see if that doesn't help.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jouko
Veteran Member


Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 147
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

freaklip
wrote::

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if this even makes sense. My son is new to trumpet, and I work with him a lot. He seems like he is choking off the air with his throat. Sometimes I can hear grunting sounds. Seems like he's way too tense from the neck up, and he tires himself out. Are there any good exercises to work on something like that, or is this maybe a phase of early development
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to think about the best advice for your son as a trumpetplayer I advice you to get a good teacher and your son shall thank you about it when he is older.
Ther is so much opinions and words about this topic that you and your son are going only more and more confused about it and about trumpetplaying in general.

Kind Regards
Jouko Moilanen
Helsinki, Finland
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trptdork
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a former student who did this exact thing: kept tension in the neck and throat area, and "grunted" whilst playing.

We cured it by having him intentionally make that sound while playing, and when he could pin point what he was doing, and recreate it at will, he could also stop it at will.

I find it easiest to stop a physical action, when I know exactly what that action is that I'm trying to stop feels like.

Sort of a "If you can recreate it, you can also not recreate it." kind of philosophy. At least that works for me, and of course the aforementioned student!

Best of luck!
_________________
Bach 72 bell/25 pipe
Warburton 5s/Qm
Bach 6C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lmaraya
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 618

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Suggest to your son that he relax his stomach/abs rather than tighten them, as many players do thinking this is what produces high notes. In fact, this triggers the valsalva maneuver which tightens the throat and leads to the grunting sound you're hearing. Summing up: suggest he take deep, full but relaxed OH breaths and see if that doesn't help.


Agree with jhatpro, and I think that the reason why it happens is because players perceive high notes as being "hard", by thinking hard=heavy, the brain wants to activate (unconsciously) the same mechanism that works great to lift heavy objects (valsalva maneuver) but is the worst thing a wind musician can do.

So my advice is to play Study #1 by Clarke (the chromatic scale one), very softly. Starting at the beginning, as he goes higher he should try to identify where he is feeling the slightest tension in the throat, there is where he should try to fix the problem, even if it is sounding "good", not when it is already too late (choked sound and grunting noises). He should try to blow as if he wanted to fog a mirror, IMHO.

LA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you take a full relaxed breath, allowing you body to expand as it will, the air wants out. If you hold it with your mouth open - it will be your throat that holds the air.


Not always.

It is possible to hold the air with the "inhale" muscular action and keep the throat (and everything else) free of tension. And this is no detriment to playing. (At times it is required.) The inhale/exhale is NOT one action. It is two distinctly separate actions. You only need not overlap them to eliminate tension. But a pause is not necessarily a cause of tension. Neither in the blowing mechanism OR the throat.

Also, the vigorous use of the exhale muscles does not automatically induce the valsalva.

Quote:
Agree with jhatpro, and I think that the reason why it happens is because players perceive high notes as being "hard", by thinking hard=heavy, the brain wants to activate (unconsciously) the same mechanism that works great to lift heavy objects (valsalva maneuver) but is the worst thing a wind musician can do.


But loud dynamics, especially high notes at loud dynamics, DO require relatively higher air pressure and the exhale muscles are used more intensely. Especially as the lungs become more empty of air on a long note or phrase.

One SHOULD strive to play with as much efficiency as possible to minimize the air pressure required. But as one ventures into the loudest dynamics, especially on higher pitches, more effort IS required.

To the OP: lots of soft practice with very gradual increases in range and loudness will encourage the student to ward-off the tension.

And the soft/low notes should be played with low effort. Not "lots" of air.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garrett901
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2009
Posts: 1248
Location: Vacaville CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good explanations on Darryl's part... Read the Yoga book, "The Science of Breath". Do a search, it's out there as a free download. Brass players can learn a lot from this book. Yoga is about (partly) the release of tension... This book will teach you how to breath ! I know it sounds sort of silly, and most folks will just say, "I was born breathing and I've been doing it all my life!". Trust me, it will open your eyes, if you let it...
_________________
Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Axiantor
New Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2013
Posts: 6
Location: Lisbon

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still a beginner. I've been playing for 3 years but with a lot of stops.

I still have this chocking problem. Mostly just while playing exercises. Tongue on lips. Sometimes I begin with a relaxed breath but as the notes gets higher I start chocking. Feels like my throat just closed.

I don't remember having this while I'm just playing tunes.

I hope this thread is still active.

All the best.
_________________
The Music is alive


www.healthnmoney.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6126
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0uuFa59brVvSCcdo49YT6OeDOSeEq_q/view?ts=5b8c094d
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a long time I had a problem of choking off above hi c, no real issues till then unless tired, but the note didn’t ring. Then I bought into the concept that more air doesn’t make higher notes, it makes louder notes. If you can get the notes under your belt by maintaining same or less air, you will start to develop the strength to get the volume. In my experience it doesn’t work the other way. There are a lot of methods discussed here on the forum and I am sure that they work for the people who post. Playing softly seems to help me get the feel of the note more, and something is working. I’m not making huge strides this way but I am making steady progress. Hope this helps. You will know if it helps right away.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
EBjazz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Nov 2001
Posts: 2368
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch Video 1 on this page:
https://bolvinmusic.com/product/i-play-trumpet-and-the-really-big-student-songbook/?v=7516fd43adaa

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group