embouchure damage and possible surgery

quikv6 · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:42 am Post subject: Hey Jonathan

Hey, Jon....it's Chris from NY. You emailed and spoke with me prior to your trip to Toronto. Anyways, I just found this thread, and am very glad to hear that your trip to see Dr. McGrail was fruitful, and that you're making lots of progress with his exercises. Patience is certainly a virtue. Baby steps, but always do your best to see the big picture. In the long term, I think you will realize that you are a smarter and wiser player because of the experience.

Please keep us updated on this thread, and best wishes of a complete recovery.
_________________
-Chris

holeypants · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 996

76strad · Veteran Member Joined: 21 Mar 2010 Posts: 194

Dang man, sorry to hear about that, hope you get better.

windandsong · Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject:

Hi Jonathan really interesting to read this thread and will keep my eye on it over the next few months. The whole mental and physical side of returning to the horn is certainly challenging. I am two weeks from a punch in the mouth and wondoring how things will progress or not over the next few months. Stay positive.

Gabriel

trumpet2cents · Regular Member Joined: 04 Feb 2011 Posts: 11

I am sorry you're going through that. I hope you have a speedy recovery. I have had a couple friends, healthy players just like you, that have had that happen. One of the guys in particular was positive and was sure this wasn't a big deal, or at least that is what he convinced himself to think. He kept up his other trades (playing bass in a cover band, and was a jazz signer with a rehearsal big band) while taking several months off the horn.

In the meantime how are you staying musically engaged? Playing piano, bass or singing any? Just a suggestion to keep your musical mind going. Keep positive!

www.twitter.com/trumpet2cents
www.facebook.com/trompeta.tocador

windandsong · Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject:

First time on here for a while..

and not very positive the last couple of weeks. After two months off the horn (with a tiny bit of playing) I started a very gentle routine which lasted a week or two then one day playing very soft long notes - a twinge. Horn down, iced it, haven't got it out since. Lip feels totally screwed almost worst than before. The problem now, as I can see it, is actually a bi product of the initial injury (different place) - It's a hot spot than has been caused by the weakening nearby and mouthpiece pressure.

I don't want to even try to play for a while to be honest and need to find some kind of specialist I guess. And stay positive and get on with my life. It's unbelievable how much of your identity is tied up in playing a piece of sodding metal - you soon realise this when it's taken away from you. You look at the world and you realise just how less passionate you feel about some things, how unimportant they seem and you're forced to find the positives...It's been Ok but every so often I just think WTF, I can't be bothered. I can't even hear a trumpet and feel ok with it

So, there you go kids, look after your embochures, cos it sure ain't worth damaging them that's for sure.

Tomorrow's another day and i didn't do this for a living so I am damn lucky - god knows what that would be like and my heart goes out to anyone in this position. I'm still fit and healthy, the sun is shining and I have some great friends....could be worse ay?

Gabe

quikv6 · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:39 am Post subject: wind and song....

Hey Gabe....I just wanted to say that your description of how it feels to be injured and off the horn was incredibly accurate. It was spot on, actually. It felt like the story of my life for the last 3 years or so, as I've shared the same sentiments, including the angry, bitterness sometimes as well.
Feel free to PM/email me if you need any info for Dr. McGrail, who would be the only one I'd recommend to you.

Best of luck,

Chris
_________________
-Chris

2-5-1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 1381

WindandSong,

I assume the hot spot is in your top lip? I dealt with that for a long time after my injury. When you get back to playing, make damn sure you are not putting the weight of the horn on your top lip. Try playing with most of the weight on your bottom lip. After being made aware of this by Dave Sheetz, that problem for me went away fairly quickly for me.

When you hurt yourself, you start trying any and everything to get the sound happening again including things that you wouldn't normally do. For some reason, lots of people start pinning that upper lip with the mouthpiece. It's a recipe for disaster.
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com

windandsong · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:21 am Post subject:

@mike..check!

@chris..dr mcgrail - heard a lot about him, i'll message you about this. i should see somebody here first i guess..i dont relly have any faith in doctors in all honesty. however with some kind of scan im sure i'll get some kind of accurate diagnosis.

cheers all.

g

Steve Hollahan · Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: Embouchure damage

Hello, Sorry to hear of your injury. Several of friends and players I knew had carreer ending damage to face and nerves. And I have had bad bouts of severe overuse of lips myself. One in which I incurred during forced over-practice in grad school. However, I want to turn the injury conversation to other injuries of which to be aware:

*Tooth injuries or breakage
*Jaw or facial injury or distopia
*Abdominal injuries-hernias, intestinal surgery

While I don't want to alarm or cause any to drawback from developing fully, the full range of injuries to which any brass player is subject should read like any other athlete's nightmare scenario list. Though most of us don't consider ourselves intellectuals, or athletes, but performers, we should take tips from ahtletes about warmups, practice and performance.

My own extreme example involve a hernia. Which ended a golden symphony audition oppurtunity (one where they called me). I begged off, went to get my surgery and did it as a one day affair. I thought a few months of rehab and practice and I would be back at playing. Things just went south a few days later and I wound up with major abdominal surgery involving removal of parts of the colon due to diverticulosis, a recovery period and reconnection of the colon after another major surgery. There were warning signs I did not heed, but again as with many, they were easily explained. After all, practicing is never totally comfortable, and some signs of are easily dismissed as no pain, no gain. (As I am older my exercise mantra is now: no pain, No Pain!)

My advice is this: Be aware of physical and mental signs of stress exertion and injury to your health in general and chop overall health in particular. Know your everyday limits and set reasonable goals. Get a good dentist and doctor and get regular checkups. Including those procedures we would all rather avoid.

Keep practicing, playing, and enjoying the horn. Realize many if not most players make it back from injuries. Take care of yourself.

I wish I could go back to pre surgery for the oppurtunities and time lost playing, but that cannot happen. Just trying to move ahead with playing again. I have another bit of surgery to do, but now3 can take it in stride. My only comfort is with less colon now, I'm literally less of an a**hole than I used to be.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

Michael Hawes · Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:24 am Post subject:

Hey there!

I am so sorry to hear you have had to go through this!!

My name is Mike Hawes, I'm a trumpet student at Northwestern University. I tore my Orbicularis Oris and had it sewn up by Dr. McGrail last August, and am in the midst of the recovery right now. Causes were all the same stuff, a ton of playing obligations combined with way too much stupid practicing (long chunks with no rest). Took about 3 1/2 months off the horn, and am now coming back. It's a long process, and I am slowly accepting the incredible slowness. After about 5 months of playing, I am up to about 20-25 minutes a day total, in two chunks. Like a pitcher recovering from Tommy Johns surgery, the recovery time is looking like it will be at least one - two years. Now, I just have to make sure those 20 minutes are the absolute best 20 minutes I can produce. The best sound, best everything, and then put the horn away happy with the progress that I made that day. It's so easy to over-do it, but especially now, I can't, because if I do, I will be paying for it for the next several days.

I'm slowly learning, it's all about intelligent practice, patience, finding the balance between playing and resting, and being happy with doing the very best you can at that very moment.

Here is a podcast the Bassoon professor put together about Trumpet injuries, a really great thing he did, it has commentary from him, me, and my two teachers here.

http://www.instantencore.com/buzz/item.aspx?FeedEntryId=136879

If you want any more information, or want to talk, I'd really love to help!! Please don't make the same mistakes that I did!!!

Take care,

Mike
_________________
Life is Good!

Matt Graves · Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:54 am Post subject:

Michael:

Thanks so much for posting that link.

What a great resource. I just emailed it to a student!
_________________
For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet

sbolton · Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: embouchure problem

I dearly know how bad embouchure problems can be. 28 years ago I was going great guns to be a lead player and then as luck would have it, something not good struck. I was in high school and I was playing on a L.A. Benge 4X with a warburton 4S top/ 5 BB. Over all a good combination then one day my horn got stolen and like a fool I listened to my trumpet teacher and bought a Schilke S32. The horn was way tighter than my Benge and after a while things started going down hill rather quickly. Endurance and range kept dropping at an even rate. Went from playing a three octave C scale to a one octave c scale. Massive amount of pain in the corners of the mouth. By the time I got to college I had about ten minutes of endurance and an incredible amount of pain. My cheeks and corners would be numb from the pain. After two years of UTK band I finally gave it up.
The bright side of this story was seven months ago after seeing that Doc came to town and perfomed, I decided to pick the horn back up. The pain and all the problems were still there. Mr. Brad Goode and Mr. DeMartino gave me words of encouragement that somehow this could be fixed. They were right and it was. I first decided that the mouthpiece had to be the first change. I decided on a comfort basis that a Jet Tone Custom 2B was a good first step. Nice wide cushion rim that is semi flat for very good support. Sold Schilke S32 and purchased an L.A. Benge 5X. Miracles started occurring. My range has increased an Octave and now I can play a two octave C scale. Endurance is good enough to handle a two hour stint in the Knoxville community band. Patience is now my enemy.
My best advice to anyone suffering from lip injury is to seek help and start looking at their equipment. Thin rims with lots of bite are truly a trumpet players enemy. Almost everyone who picks up a horn is handed a Bach 7C and sqeeker of a horn. Then we start gravitating to more facilitating equipment. Because of my embouchure problem and recovery I have an extensive Jet Tone collection from the Ratzenberger Era (Getting Hard to find). The rims are some of the best ever made in my opinion. CAUTION, after 1984 when Bill died and WWBW bought Jet tone, the jet tone line went to hell in a bucket. Good luck to all who have had problems and Thank you Brad and Vince for your words of encouragement.

1981 L.A. Benge 5X
1976 L.A. Benge 2X
1929 Martin Handcraft Dansant
jet tone Custom 2B, 1B, 2C, 2D, 4D, 4B, 5B, 7D, 8B, Al Hirt B, MF[/url][/list]

windandsong · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject:

Hello All

Just to say that after a 6 month lay off and 2 months back on the horn I seem to be in a relatively safe place with the horn again and have pretty much regained sound and range fully with endurance following a close second. I want to say thanks to all your contributions on this site as they have been very helpful. I also want to say that with time and patience and some kind of faith in the healing power of the human body it is entirely possible to come back from a freak injury (without killing yourself or somebody in the meantime) and when you do, it's a joy.

For all those wrestling with chop/playing issues, be patient, it will come.

G

lh · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject:

That's good to hear, Gabe!

MrClean · Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject:

This is all fascinating stuff. I just ordered the book, though I guess I was a little discouraged by one poster's observation that the exercises should not be considered "pre-injury" insurance.

BG - you alluded to the fact that many teachers are churning out players that may be prone to this type of injury, and I can't say I disagree with you, being products of teachers that probably did the same thing (no offense to these guys as they all gave me very valuable guidance in other aspects of my playing). I know I am working harder than I should when I play, and would really like to find a better way to do what I do and teach without compromising the parts that are working. I don't think I know what it is like to play without discomfort - would love to find out, though!

J
_________________
Jim Wilt
LA Philharmonic
Colburn School

bg · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject:

I am resurrecting this thread because I have a good friend who I think might have torn his orbicularis oris muscle. He lives in another State so I haven't seen the problem personally, but he describes a lump in his upper lip and this lump has now (recently) moved from near the center more toward the corner of his lip. From his description over the phone it seems to me it could be a bunched up, torn muscle. He also can hardly play above middle C, and this is after he resumed playing several years ago, quickly worked his way up to having a range to Double High C, but then one day suffered a sharp pain in his lip while practicing, and could no longer play past around low C. He's been practicing easy stuff ever since and it has taken him several years (3+) to increase his range from Low C up to Middle C - this is clearly an unreasonably slow rate of progress, especially for someone who at one time (30 years ago) was a pro-level player. He should be admired for his tenacity.

He has read the Lucinda Lewis book, consulted with Lewis over the phone, used the exercises from the book, and also I believe he consulted with Dr. Simon McGrail via telephone at one time. At that time he could not travel to Canada for an appointment (and possible surgery) with McGrail, but now he is able and willing to. But he (and I) are not sure Dr. McGrail is still practicing.

Does anybody know if Dr. McGrail is still a practicing surgeon? Also, I've read the name Dr. Craig A. Vander Kolk in an earlier post in this thread, and would appreciate any information about him, his experience and his qualifications to perform lip surgery.

Thanks!

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student