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"Anchor tonguing"


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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good can of worms here. i have been taking CG lessons, and reading some bill knevitt material made me reexamine tongue position. anyhow i discovered i had been tonguing on the roof of the mouth, and in the diagram the tongue sits behind the bottom teeth and the tongue arch is what articulates sound against the roof of the mouth.
changing the tongue position was not terribly hard. what i had failed to understand, and this post illuminates, is that the tongue anchors behind the front teeth instead of striking them. apparently also this is KTM and my lessons haven't yet illuminated this concept.
thanks for bringing this up. good discussion.
..chuck
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
the tongue sits behind the bottom teeth and the tongue arch is what articulates sound against the roof of the mouth.


Think of "releasing" the sound, instead of striking it. Also, this can occur right behind the front teeth, where they meet the inside gum. For me, that's better most of the time.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: yes Reply with quote

Absolutely. Think of releasing..number one. Secondly, it is not anchoring. If you think of an anchor, it is heavy, and holds something in place, with weight. The tongue is NEVER to be tense, holding in place, weighty. The tongue, in ANY position must be flexible, and the tongue ALWAYS moves, slightly, from note to note, and register to register. The tip is pressed, LIGHTLY, against the bottom teeth, NEVER anchored, as it will float a little, and the middle of the tongue flexes and relaxes, the tip moving slightly lower or forward, due and according to many factors. Claude Gordon explains this in the book he authored addressing tongue level exercises, and he addresses it, literally. Additionally, never did Herbert L mention "anchoring" the tongue, when he revealed publicly what many players considered their"secret" privately. It is called, "dorsal" tonguing, and many commercial and orchestral players employ the technique, to one degree or another, as the oral cavity is reduced and the resistance increased when the tongue stays in the arched position. Whistle from a low note to a high note. Now do it again, and attend to your tongue position. Did you do anything to your lips, to raise the pitch?????No..you did not. When the air passes through your lips under more pressure, the pressure exerted by it against the air outside, and the resistance of the existing air outside the lips, causes the lips to contract slightly, raising the pitch.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks guys those are some good technique adjustments to work on...
chuck
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgovnor wrote:
Quote:
Whistle from a low note to a high note. Now do it again, and attend to your tongue position. Did you do anything to your lips, to raise the pitch?????No..you did not. When the air passes through your lips under more pressure, the pressure exerted by it against the air outside, and the resistance of the existing air outside the lips, causes the lips to contract slightly, raising the pitch.


Increasing resistance does not increase air pressure.

The pitch change while whistling occurs due to the smaller oral space, which has an increased resonant frequency, and produces a higher pitch.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:18 am    Post subject: actually, it is so Reply with quote

that is true, however, the smaller aperture is created as a result as a pattern created as the air passing through the lips meets the air outside the lips, and the lips contract in reaction. And yes, I neglected to add the smaller oral cavity. Thank you.
When whistling, and the tongue arches, nothing is done, voluntarily, to the aperture. It is involuntary. We are able, however, to voluntarily effect the aperture by contracting the em brochure muscles, otherwise.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I doubt that any embouchure "changes" , vouluntary or involuntary, are the result of air "qualities". They are all due to muscular actions, even subtle ones, conciously or sub-conciously, voluntary or involuntary.

When wistling the oral space size has the vastly dominant and direct influence on the frequency of the tone produced. When playing it has very little, if any, and the pulsing embouchure is the dominating factor.

There are some similarities in the actions of changing pitch while whistling and ascending while playing. But these are general and causatively NOT the same.

There are also differences in the aperture approach to playing vs whistling.

When playing brass, the tongue arch must accompany specific aperture changes. When whistling the aperture must be held very constant.

On the whole, they are different activities and have very specific differences as to the reasons there is change of pitch.
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fraserhutch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, there goes an informative and helpful thread. Again.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find no advantage to so called "anchor tonguing" I find a much better "pallate" of attacks for musical situatins by simply articulating where the tongue sits naturally.

The "anchor tonguing" requires me to move the jaw to a more "open" setting which adversely effects my natural effective embouchure.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fraserhutch wrote:
Well, there goes an informative and helpful thread. Again.


Agreed.
Dear Kalijah; Please consider starting your own thread regarding what works for you instead of jumping on every tongue level thread and telling us what doesn't work.

Thank you.

Eb
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you joking Eric?

The OP wrote:

Quote:
but what are everyone's experiences with this system?


I said it does not work for ME, and specifically why.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: no one Reply with quote

the change inside the mp, the various adjustment the aperture makes.. is mostly involuntary response to changes in resistance as the air is refracted, and this is begun as the air passes through a smaller chamber, under pressure, the arched tongue
However, the aperture can be controlled, and focused, and effected in and by a "muscular contraction"...
no one does a thing except arch the tongue, when whistling, to raise the pitch. It would not raise, if there was no air, outside the mouth.
Additionally, anchor tonguing is NOT what is being discussed here, as there is no where in the literature where anyone speaks of anchor tongue. Only the "Johnny come Lately, who is not even familiar with the fundamental technique, would refer to it as such. The tongue always moves..it is NEVER anchored, ANYWHERE. It moves from note to note, whether you think so, or not. The place where the release is effected changes from register to register, as does the placement of the tip of the tongue. It, like anything alive, is NEVER static. Not ever.
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took me about 4 months of practice (back in the day) to develop my KTM, into habit. Anchor tonguing is a misnomer. When we say AW - EE, the tongue rises to an upward and more forward position in the mouth. It's impossible to say AW-EE-AW, without the tongue moving. When the tongue rises to a higher position in the mouth the air stream the will go faster and further. As the tongue moves to the syllable E you must blow stronger to meet this resistance.
And the tongue will find, not through theory, because you really can't measure it, but through practice alone, the correct level for any given note. It's the tongue that channels the pitch, it's the tongue that decides what note comes out the end of the horn.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's the tongue that channels the pitch, it's the tongue that decides what note comes out the end of the horn


That is a myth.

The actual tongue position has little to no direct effect on pitch.
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crazyalien257
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you joking Eric?

The OP wrote:

Quote:
but what are everyone's experiences with this system?


I said it does not work for ME, and specifically why.

Quote:

That is a myth.

The actual tongue position has little to no direct effect on pitch.


If you wish to share your experience of anchor tonguing, please limit it to your PERSONAL experience, and refrain from starting a debate based on someone else's personal experience.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone. No thread derailing please, as I want to read some actual info instead of slogging through some mindless yelling competition.[/quote]
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
It's the tongue that channels the pitch, it's the tongue that decides what note comes out the end of the horn


That is a myth.

The actual tongue position has little to no direct effect on pitch.


Sadly, I think that as long as there is a Trumpet Herald, poor Darryl is going to continue to pollute the minds of younger (and older) struggling players with his misinformed opinions concerning the role of the tongue level in brass playing.

Fortunately, most sensible people who want to learn about trumpet playing know they have a wealth of knowledge available to them from true experts - guys like Arturo Sandoval, Claude Gordon, Allen Vizzutti, Phil Smith, Armando Ghitalla, Earl D. Irons, Charles Colin, John Haynie, Frank Kaderabek, Susan Slaughter, and so many others, many of whom have posted personal advice and even videos on YouTube about trumpet playing, and others, whom though gone now, have left a legacy of books, videos and former students behind to provide the real info about trumpet playing.

For the record (as most players now know), while the tongue is not the only determinant in what note we play on a brass instrument, it is one of the main components involved in determining the pitch.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
http://thesystematicapproach.com/2010/04/13/what-does-john-mohan-know-about-trumpet-playing/

P.S. What having knowledge of the role of tongue level and KTM or Anchor Tonguing as the OP referred to it as and applying that knowledge through proper practice can do (the following was shot straight through in one take, with only my dialogue between excerpts being editing out):


Link


[edit was to add the words "and KTM or Anchor Tonguing as the OP referred to it as"]
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Last edited by John Mohan on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I want to read some actual info


Ah, so mcgovnor's musings on the "physics" of the technique is actual info and mine is not?

Yes it is a shame that you cant discuss, simply, techniques and actions with out the added comentary of the "physics".

I only chimed in with comments once that threshhold was already breached.

Quote:
If you wish to share your experience of anchor tonguing, please limit it to your PERSONAL experience, and refrain from starting a debate based on someone else's personal experience.


I am not debating anyone's personal experience. But since my "personal experience" does not affirm the technique then I guess it is a problem.

solo sop is not simply relating his "personal experience". He is attempting to "enforce" his personal experience as the ONLY way by injecting a falsehood.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: I Reply with quote

I keep trying to stop watching:) this thread:):)as I want to try and enjoy TH, and help some who may be faced with issues re this and other fundamental misunderstandings and incorrect applications of technique, as well as glean from the posters. At any rate, have a great day, every day...and when it gets the better of u, out there, remember, the sun rises each day on all of us, and there is another opportunity.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
I find no advantage to so called "anchor tonguing" I find a much better "pallate" of attacks for musical situatins by simply articulating where the tongue sits naturally.

The "anchor tonguing" requires me to move the jaw to a more "open" setting which adversely effects my natural effective embouchure.


For the record, I find nothing wrong with Darryl having posted the above. The OP asked for opinions regarding what he referred to as "Anchor Tonguing" and Darryl replied as requested.

Also, like mcgovnor, I think calling it "Anchor" Tonguing has always been a very, very bad term. As my teacher Claude Gordon always said, the tongue should never be "anchored" but should be free and relaxed to go where it needs to. When tonguing in the way he and Herbert Clarke advocated (which is the way most of not all great players actually articulate), at times the tip of the tongue will float up to the very top of the bottom front teeth. The main point of it is not to have the tongue tip rising up into the area of the top front teeth or even behind them, where it then interrupts the airflow and can cause harsh attacks and inaccuracy, especially in the upper register.

K-Tongue Modified, or Dorsal Tonguing are both good ways to describe the phenomena.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

P.S. This will be my last post again for a while. As some of you might have noticed, I've had to curtail my Trumpet Herald time quite a bit. I am back in school doing 16 credit hours, practicing a full routine on my trumpet, and running my business, and that doesn't leave much time for posting here. I'm sure this makes some people sad, but many others happy.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:09 am    Post subject: v Reply with quote

Vacchiano and Claude, agreed..so..what's new? Great players, truly great players, who are great teachers, do think alike. There are absolutes, and the flexible moving tongue is one of them. At least, that's what she sai...ok, ok..I couldn't help myself:)
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