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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: |
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John wrote:
| Quote: | | Sadly, I think that as long as there is a Trumpet Herald, poor Darryl is going to continue to pollute the minds of younger (and older) struggling players with his misinformed opinions concerning the role of the tongue level in brass playing. |
Anyone who has bothered to actually read what I have written on TH would see that that statement is utterly fallacious.
I have NEVER discouraged the use of the tongue movement if it helps you play. As a matter of fact I engage in it myself. Why would I atempt to discredit an action that I actually engage in and use, and encourage? I also have stated the specific reasons WHY the tongue must move for most embouchure styles and why it moves less for others.
But ultimately a player should choose to, or not, based on his/her results. Engaging in metaphorical ideas and visualizations to instruct a particular action is indeed fair game. But one should never guarantee results of a particular method, or attempt to "enforce" its use based on a physical explanation, especially one that is erroneous. |
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Pinsel
Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Where exactly do you hit with your tongue dorsum? Do you hit on the alveolar ridge behind the teeth or more back on the roof of the mouth?
I wanted to learn this, but if I strike with the back of my tongue I hit exactly where I would hit with the tip I think. |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Pinsel wrote: | Where exactly do you hit with your tongue dorsum? Do you hit on the alveolar ridge behind the teeth or more back on the roof of the mouth?
I wanted to learn this, but if I strike with the back of my tongue I hit exactly where I would hit with the tip I think. |
It sounds to me like you are doing it correctly, if when you write "the back of" your tongue, you mean the area just behind the tip of your tongue (what I would refer to as the "front-middle" portion of my tongue or the area "just behind" the tip of my tongue.
For me, my tongue comes into contact with a combination of the alveolar ridge and also my lower lip (the portion of my tongue just behind the tip contacts my lower lip which tucks inward slightly). The tongue and lip meet in the area between my top and bottom front teeth. Where exactly the contact happens varies according to volume, range, how hard or soft I am articulating and perhaps even with the tonality I am seeking.
While it is impossible to describe the exact position for any given note, the feel of it can be developed with practice. I think in looking back at my (many) posts on the TH, I've let myself be tempted too often by posts asking for specifics. I've tried to "explain" too much. The fact is, nearly everyone that participates here has the general idea of it down. The next step is to practice correctly and stick with it for the years it takes to develop.
Best wishes,
John |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | John wrote:
| Quote: | | Sadly, I think that as long as there is a Trumpet Herald, poor Darryl is going to continue to pollute the minds of younger (and older) struggling players with his misinformed opinions concerning the role of the tongue level in brass playing. |
Anyone who has bothered to actually read what I have written on TH would see that that statement is utterly fallacious. |
Regarding what I wrote about Darryl being misinformed, it was only his comments claiming that the tongue doesn't have much if anything to do with pitch I was referring to. Darryl has made many fine comments on other subjects all over the Trumpet Herald. |
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Pinsel
Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info!
Have you guys heard of the idea that the most effective way to articulate is a lateral movement of the tongue? The tongue better doesn´t change it´s position but the shape says somebody I don´t want to quote too often. |
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mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2607
Location: ny ny
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: instead |
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| Instead of looking to further discourse..understand..Herbet Clarke..thousands of others, everyone who plays with conviction above high C for a living..Vachianno, Ghitalla...Ray Mace...Claude Gordon..keep the tongue relaxed, floating in a way..Vach said like a shutter blowing in the wind..that's it bro. |
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mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2607
Location: ny ny
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: one last |
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| If this is a forum, why does anyone care..about how many good things or bad things..really..this emotional undercurrent of judgement, approval and need to validate diminishes the efficacy of the ideas presented. Truly...Silliness. |
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solo soprano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 856
Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: Re: |
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| mcgovnor wrote: | Vacchiano and Claude, agreed..so..what's new? Great players, truly great players, who are great teachers, do think alike. There are absolutes, and the flexible moving tongue is one of them. At least, that's what she sai...ok, ok..I couldn't help myself:) |
Facts always trump theory. |
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jamesswilcox
Regular Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: |
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I wondered what people's thoughts were on placing the tongue over the bottom teeth and resting/contacting the bottom lip? As many of us will know, this is the current incarnation of Callet's teaching. I would be interest to know what the rationale is for this rather than what I understand KTM to be, i.e. placing the tongue behind the bottom teeth. Apologies if I have got this wrong.
Best,
J |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Hi James,
My tongue does come in contact with my lower lip during articulations, but it's not so much that my tongue is going between my teeth as it is that my lower lip recedes back a bit and the tongue and it sort of "meet in the middle" somewhere.
And more importantly: they only contact each other during articulations. If I let my tongue touch my lower lip while sustaining notes, at the least, it completely dulls the sound, and at most, it cuts off the vibrations completely by distorting the positioning of my lip (embouchure) formation.
I think the rational behind the Callet way is that the tongue muscle is used to support the lower lip and perhaps also compress it into the top lip to make the extreme register easier. It might do this, but even if it does, I think it does so at the expensive of clean articulations and full, pleasant tone in the rest of the register.
Some players have said they use a combination of KTM style tonguing for all but the highest notes and the Callet way for the extreme register. Based on my personal experience, I do not recommend such ways of attempting to play a brass instrument as I have found I can develop my range all the way to G above Double High C using KTM with all the other benefits of KTM (clean tonguing, nice tone, power, endurance, and accuracy throughout the register).
Best wishes,
John |
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chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Pinsel wrote: | Where exactly do you hit with your tongue dorsum? Do you hit on the alveolar ridge behind the teeth or more back on the roof of the mouth?
I wanted to learn this, but if I strike with the back of my tongue I hit exactly where I would hit with the tip I think. |
pinsel
you may be proficient in both german and english. the rest of us here are still having a hard time with english proficiency, certainly will the spelling part, with the writing part using the incorrect homonym, that sort of thing.
please don't use words that will make us use the dictionary. it makes us very sad.
..chuck |
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jamesswilcox
Regular Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi John,
As ever, an insightful post from you. Thank you very much; TH would be a far poorer place without your participation.
My tongue is in contact with my bottom lip all the time, but I read with interest your observation on tone and how this might be hampered if the tongue were 'jammed up' against the bottom lip. This is one of those observations that I think I kind of knew, but hadn't quite yet formulated in to a concept. I will do a little experimenting tomorrow to see how my tone changes when I alternate between the two approaches.
Best,
James |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| For what it's worth, I KTM up to about high C or so. At that point, my tongue flips over my bottom teeth and comes to rest on the top/rear of my bottom lip. The tip of my tongue acts like the pin in a tire valve, plugging up the aperture save for a very tiny amount of extremely fast air. |
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trpt2honk
Regular Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:20 am Post subject: Re: no one |
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The tongue always moves..it is NEVER anchored, ANYWHERE. It moves from note to note, whether you think so, or not. The place where the release is effected changes from register to register, as does the placement of the tip of the tongue. It, like anything alive, is NEVER static. Not ever.[/quote]
I’m noticing that even with the “tip” of the tongue behind the bottom teeth, sometimes part of the tongue is touching or “pushing” the bottom lip, trying to compensate for some weakness. (My guess) Anyone have any ideas about keeping the tongue away from the bottom lip? Or is that a problem that goes away when the rest of embouchure is in place and in shape?
Mike
_________________
Mike Berry
Columbia, SC
trpt2honk@gmail.com |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:30 am Post subject: |
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There's an entire school of playing that advocates for TOL (tongue-on-lip). If it works I don't think there's any reason to work against it.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Jaw04
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 899
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: no one |
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| trpt2honk wrote: | | The tongue always moves..it is NEVER anchored, ANYWHERE. It moves from note to note, whether you think so, or not. The place where the release is effected changes from register to register, as does the placement of the tip of the tongue. It, like anything alive, is NEVER static. Not ever. |
I’m noticing that even with the “tip” of the tongue behind the bottom teeth, sometimes part of the tongue is touching or “pushing” the bottom lip, trying to compensate for some weakness. (My guess) Anyone have any ideas about keeping the tongue away from the bottom lip? Or is that a problem that goes away when the rest of embouchure is in place and in shape?
Mike[/quote]
My tongue touches my bottom lip quite often. I've noticed in my practice that when this is happening, I'm playing pretty well, I'm not tired, and I'm usually relaxed. I'm just noticing it more after reading this thread. |
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epoustoufle
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015
Posts: 232
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| On the very highest notes, sometimes my tongues touches my nose. Anyone else get that? |
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kevin_soda
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: no one |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | trpt2honk wrote: | | The tongue always moves..it is NEVER anchored, ANYWHERE. It moves from note to note, whether you think so, or not. The place where the release is effected changes from register to register, as does the placement of the tip of the tongue. It, like anything alive, is NEVER static. Not ever. |
I’m noticing that even with the “tip” of the tongue behind the bottom teeth, sometimes part of the tongue is touching or “pushing” the bottom lip, trying to compensate for some weakness. (My guess) Anyone have any ideas about keeping the tongue away from the bottom lip? Or is that a problem that goes away when the rest of embouchure is in place and in shape?
Mike |
My tongue touches my bottom lip quite often. I've noticed in my practice that when this is happening, I'm playing pretty well, I'm not tired, and I'm usually relaxed. I'm just noticing it more after reading this thread.[/quote]
I try not to let it distract me while I'm playing but I've noticed that my lower lip comes between my teeth if I've pivoted to play in the upper register. When I level out, my jaw position gets both lips aligned in front of the teeth and my airstream is more open. The tip of my tongue touches my lower teeth most of the time but I don't intentionally keep it there. I found this method as a result of trying to find a more neutral/natural mouth shape/tongue position.
_________________
Kevin |
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GJ Trumpet
New Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2020
Posts: 4
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm new to the community, so hi! I'd just like to give my thoughts are on so called anchor tonguing. I find that when I concentrate and discipline myself to trying to maintain that shape and articulating further back on the tongue(I saw a video of Adam Rapa describing exactly what I feel) I get much more consistency. The notes come out cleaner and with more pop to them. However I still find a slight struggle from about a Bb to high C# where something has to change with the tongue, and I can't quite figure out what! I can tongue up to the A above, but I can't get all the way back down again without a small pause as my tongue tries to find its way back into the middle register, which I am pretty sure means I'm not doing it quite correctly, but I am constantly trying to find the right way! |
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JVL
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:13 am Post subject: |
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hello GJ
there's a blurry zone also for me, what Bobby Shew calls the pit snake, between the notes from A above the staff to high D and needs on certain licks an accurate coordination wjth jaw-tongue-lips alignment. When this occurs, i practice these licks very slowly, making sure all notes come clean, clear, accurate, smooth, and then i increase the tempo.
best |
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