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newtrumpetguy
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 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: Selmer Piccolo Trumpets |
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I've read all the threads, even this looong one: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61866 and still can't figure out how you can tell from around what time a certain one was made. I guess I'm looking for a serial number list of the years that the piccolos were made. Is there one? Also how can you tell if yours is gold plated or not? Mine looks like it could be but I'm not 100% sure.
Info on my picc sn#76552. Valves numbered 25 26 27 28, bottom springs. Can anyone tell me around what year it was made? and how to tell wether is gold plate or not?
Here's a quick picture from my phone:
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Selmer Piccolo Trumpets |
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| newtrumpetguy wrote: | | ...my picc sn#76552. Valves numbered 25 26 27 28... |
-It's from one of the very last batches of this model, the early eighties.
http://rouses.net/trumpet/selmer.htm
-The valve numbers are only fabrication codes, to keep the right valves with the right instrument.
-With a small flashlight bulb, a short cable and a battery you can do simple a test. The light will not turn on if the instrument's surface is lacquered, if it is gold plated it will (lacquer doesn't conduct electricity, gold plate does).
-A less than subtle test can be done with a torch; lacquer burns, gold plate doesn't. 
MvW.
Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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newtrumpetguy
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Maarten, don't think I'll be doing a torch test though lol. If I find a cable, battery, and bulb one day I'll try test it otherwise it doesn't matter. Piccolo plays great, whethers it's lacquer or gold.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| newtrumpetguy wrote: | | Thanks Maarten, don't think I'll be doing a torch test though lol. If I find a cable, battery, and bulb one day I'll try test it otherwise it doesn't matter. Piccolo plays great, whethers it's lacquer or gold. |
You're welcome. I just added the Rouses Selmer sn-list to my first post.
BTW, someone once sold me a "lacquered" Selmer piccolo which turned out to be gold plated, so it might be worth checking...
Have fun with it!
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trumq
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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The same basic test can be performed with a VOM if you have access to one. Set the resistance test to check for continuity, then touch 2 spots on the finish/plating. If it beeps, gold plating. If not, lacquer.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Selmer Piccolo Trumpets |
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| newtrumpetguy wrote: | | and how to tell wether is gold plate or not? |
From the picture it looks like there are some places where the finish is worn. Gold plate wears off (the finish gets thinner and thinner until it's gone in spots), lacquer will flake or chip (if the finish stops adhering to the metal, one minute there's lacquer, the next minute there's bare brass). If you look carefully at the worn spots you should be able to tell which it is.
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DavesTrumpet
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James Becker
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: | | Looks gold plate to me. Ferrules on Selmer piccs are nickel silver. Or at least on all the ones I've seen. |
Yes Dave, the ferrules look like the rest of the trumpet. But if you take into account Paris Selmer gold dyed lacquer that has darkened over the years, the true test is if there is any breaks or pink stains in the finish that indicates it is lacquered.
I hope this is helpful.
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | DavesTrumpet wrote: | | Looks gold plate to me. Ferrules on Selmer piccs are nickel silver. Or at least on all the ones I've seen. |
Yes Dave, the ferrules look like the rest of the trumpet. But if you take into account Paris Selmer gold dyed lacquer that has darkened over the years, the true test is if there is any breaks or pink stains in the finish that indicates it is lacquered.
I hope this is helpful. |
My Selmer picc is older than this one, but the nickel silver shines through just fine on it.
So what's the consensus, is this a gold plated horn or not? Looks like a little lacquer style wear on the bell throat. I just can't tell by the pic! Either way, It's in nice shape!
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newtrumpetguy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Not 100% positive but I from the two wear spots I found I think it's gold!
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| newtrumpetguy wrote: | | Not 100% positive but I from the two wear spots I found I think it's gold! |
Looks gold to me. I have three gold plated horns (one of them in my sig. below) and a lacquered Selmer picc older than yours.
Depending on how it's plated, gold is usually plated over silver. (There are exceptions to this, you can plate over brass, as I had my main Bb plated). If you see any silver-toned wear spots that might help to identify whether it's g.p. or not.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: | | ...Depending on how it's plated, gold is usually plated over silver. (There are exceptions to this, you can plate over brass, as I had my main Bb plated). If you see any silver-toned wear spots that might help to identify whether it's g.p. or not. |
It might have been a coincidence, but all the originally gold plated Selmer piccolos of this series that I have come across had been plated directly over raw brass.
I've often wondered how they managed to make it stick for so many decades, knowing that gold plate over silver holds far better.
MvW.
Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | | DavesTrumpet wrote: | | ...Depending on how it's plated, gold is usually plated over silver. (There are exceptions to this, you can plate over brass, as I had my main Bb plated). If you see any silver-toned wear spots that might help to identify whether it's g.p. or not. |
Weird as it may seem, all the gold plated Selmer piccolos of this series that I have come across had been plated directly over raw brass.
I've often wondered how they managed to make it stick for so many decades (knowing that gold plate over silver holds better).
MvW. |
In my experience, gold works better over brass than silver. The horn I made myself in 2002 looks as new today as it did 8 years ago and I've only polished it twice. Another Strad of mine (gold over silver) always has tarnish marks because of the silver plate under it. I'm completely sold on gold on brass as the way to go.
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newtrumpetguy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like it's over raw brass. I don't see any silver.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
I've always heard the opposite story (not based on my own experience, I've never owned a gold-over-raw-brass instrument for a longer period of time).
Is it possible then that most brands flash- silver plate first in order to use less gold?
I must admit that the gold plated Selmer piccolos that I saw, all had a very full layer of plating that still looked nice after many decades (apart from some wear spots).
All my 4 gold plated trumpets have been silver plated first.
My question is, why silver plate first if it doesn't make the gold stick better? Cost reduction?
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Maarten
I've always heard that since a silver plated horn is usually readily available at the factory, and ready to be gold plated, they use those horns instead of prepping a raw brass horn for gold plating. What I mean is, they'll always have some silver plated horns on hand and if a customer needs a gold plated horn, they'll just grab one of those (silver plated horns).
Ever seen a silver plated Selmer picc? Not me. So that might explain why Selmer plated over brass.
The only place I see where gold doesn't adhere as well as silver plate is to solder. However, after talking to a tech I know who does plating in all finishes, he says it's not just gold that doesn't stick well to solder. Silver has similar problems. He's also dispelled a lot of other ubran myths, like the total weight of gold used. So many people think it takes an ounce of gold to plate a horn. It's SO MUCH LESS than that. It's a tiny amount.
Anyway, every time I pick up my main Bb, the one that's gold over brass, one look at it is all I need to know what lasts better when I compare it to my other two gold plated (over silver) horns.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: | | ...Ever seen a silver plated Selmer picc?... |
Yes,
I've got three of them with original plating. 
The one from '68 has been my main piccolo ever since I bought it used in 1984.
The middle one is from '65 and has the best pitch I've ever encountered on any Selmer piccolo (it's still no Schilke though).
The oldest of the three is a '60 3-valver from one of the very first batches of Selmer M.André piccolos.
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: Gold plating |
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I also have seen a few silver Selmer piccolos over the years. The first Destinos made in Germany were gold plated directly over brass and didn't seem to wear well. The color of the gold however was beautiful. Deep and luxurious. Kanstul uses a lot of gold when plating, basing the cost on an ounce of gold for a Bb and slightly more for a flugel. I'm not sure if they plate gold over silver. Anderson does plate gold over silver and maybe that's why their price for gold plating is slightly less than Kanstul. I wish more places would offer gold lacquering similar to the early Selmers. Cost effective and hard to tell from gold plating and quite durable.
Tony Scodwell
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Gold plating |
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| Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | | DavesTrumpet wrote: | | ...Ever seen a silver plated Selmer picc?... |
Yes,
I've got three of them with original plating. |
| Tony Scodwell wrote: | | I also have seen a few silver Selmer piccolos over the years. |
Wow, you guys must get out more than I do. I've only ever seen lacquered ones!
I still play mine all the time. (It's even sitting out on the coffee table as I type this!) I've only recently been bit by the piccolo bug again after trying a friend's new fancy Yamaha. Oh, and the music store here has the new design Schilke. I haven't tried it yet because I think I'll be hooked!
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cjl
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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My Selmer picc is silver plated (serial number 77xxx) and all original as far as I can tell.
-- Joe |
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