Bach Stradivarius valve spring noise...

[bluetranemiles]

Hi all,

I’m new to the forum, but I’ve consulted the site many times and glad to be on board. I just got a brand new Bach Stradivarius 180-37 and I love it overall. It’s certainly an upgrade with the intermediate-level Conn I’d been using for many years.

However, from day one I noticed the valves to be a little bit noisy. If I put the first valve down pretty hard (probably harder than I would strike the valve when playing), I could hear the spring vibrating, making a little “doing” type sound. This also happened a bit with the third valve, not as much with the second. I tried a trick I’d seen recommended on this forum and others of putting a little slide grease on the springs and that has seemed take care of the sound.

One sound/vibration that I’ve noticed comes during playing, and usually when I’m using the first valve. For example, when I play an A (concert G) in the staff really loudly, I’ll occasionally hear a little extra vibration coming from the horn and even seem to feel it in my hand. It is a pretty quiet sound compared to the volume of the note.

So, should I send the horn back to Woodwind and Brasswind, or is this a common problem with Strads? Is it likely just a spring issue or do you think this may have slipped through the quality control at Bach? Might it be embouchure-related? My corners do get “leaky” once and a while. Any advice would be great!

Thanks,

Reid

[Fleebat]

You can take the barrels apart and try centering the springs. Often, a spring will just be dropped down into the barrel without care taken to see that it's centered, and it will rub against the inner side of the barrel.

The vibration sound you hear now and then sounds to me like the first slide is buzzing against the outer tube - where the male/female parts of the two slide components meet. Air passes through the slide and makes it vibrate back & forth, as if you were making tiny, tiny adjustments in & out with the slide. Put a little of your slide grease (I recommend lanolin) near the "closed" position on the first slide. Hold it closed, then open it up just a quarter inch or so, and put the grease all around it there. Especially if it's a new horn, it'll often be so clean there that it won't seat. And if you're one of those who mainly applies grease to the middle of the slide, it may take a long time for a "cushion" to build at the end.

Hope that helps.

Rusty Russell

[bluetranemiles]

Thanks Rusty!

I just lubed it up in that area you suggested with a little Ultra Pure regular tuning slide lube, and in a few minutes of play-testing the sound seems to have gone away! Believe it or not, I don't think I'd greased the first slide yet. I've gotten used to just lipping down notes those sharp notes from valves 1&2. Probably I habit I need to break, though I do practice with a tuner fairly often. However, it does seem a little worrisome that simply an un-greased slide could cause a noise on a brand new pro horn. Maybe this is common.

If it recurs, I'll post again. Thanks in the meantime for sharing your vast trumpet knowledge!

Cheers,
Reid

[Fleebat]

It is common, at least in my 40-odd years of experience.

Remember, the vibration isn't from the slide being loose; the buzz you heard was from one outer (female) end bumping up against another. They're supposed to fit right up against each other.

Push your first valve down, and pull/push that slide in and out, making sure that you "bump" it into the closed position a little harder than you would while you were playing. You'll hear one piece of metal "clank" lightly into the other. They're supposed to butt up against each other. As you play, the two pieces, which are resting against each other but not soldered or connected in any way, will rattle against each other if there's no lube on the slide to stop it from vibrating. It's NOT a flaw in the build.

I would bet that your left hand position is like mine, in that you don't press the thumb tightly into the hook or ring all the time. The vibration comes when you're not "pinning down" the slide with that pressure.

Give it a little time, and keep the lube on there. It will build up a tiny (almost invisible) "ramp" against the edge of the female tube, a kind of goo bumper, that will keep this from happening. I have to build it up a little each time I clean my horn - this has been true for me with many horns over the years. The only ones that won't clank & buzz on that first slide are the ones that have sort of slow first slides in the first place.

RR

[bluetranemiles]

Wow, what great insider knowledge. It is comforting that this is not a manufacturing error and in fact a sign of a well-made horn. You are correct in that I don't have a very tense grip on that saddle.

I'm sure I'm not the only one out there to have had this sound and been dumbfounded! I will keep it greased and keep you posted if it returns.

Thanks again,
Reid

[museltof]

Maybe no connection here at all, but I have just purchased a used Elkhart trumpet (I usually use a cornet) which, I believe, is made by Vincent Bach and the first thing I noticed is that compared to all the other trumpets I have played over the years, the valves are very noisy! It is also the heaviest Bb trumpet I have ever held in my life. I know this is the student model and overall I really like it, it has a quality feeling (although only the student model, I believe). Just thought I would mention the very noisy valves after reading the post from Reid.
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Bach Elkhart trumpet 100TR

[zaferis]

Yes, as a long time Bach player, I'm not surprised. Spring noise can be a commonality (I have a 184 Cornet that I love the sound of but will probably never be happy with the valve noise).

Anyway, check a couple of things beyond the spring being seated properly:

Is the valve guide right side up? Sounds funny but I've had serveral students that replaced these and put them in upside down. They still work but the spring slides around a bit more and makes more noise.

Another is to check the shape of the spring - uniform straight/barrel shaped, coils evenly spread, and the end coils should be parallel to each other (the spring will stand straight up on a flat surface-check both ends)

Then try flipping the spring- sometimes less noisey one way vs. the other.

And finally, sometimes it's the valve guide causing issues - like on my cornet, with nylon guides the valves are much quieter but I prefer the tone and response of the instrument with the brass guides. You could always try a new set of guides, might help.

Then as another poster suggested - lube up the vavle slides, and make sure the valve caps are snug enough not to vibrate (I often put slide grease on those threads too)

Does the thumb saddle touch the valve casing? It shouldn't.. sometime get bent...

good luck
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