19/30s exercise explained

[oj]

Rusty,

Thanks for this!

Have you seen the teaching of Greg Spence? He is into very much of the same thinking (based on Adam - lead pipe, etc.).

Greg has several good video clip on his website:
http://www.mysterytomastery.com/

Ole

[Fleebat]

[Fleebat]

Ole,

Yes, I've checked out the Mystery To Mastery stuff, but not in some time. I'll look into it again.

Thanks!

RR

[roynj]

Rusty, thanks for the post. I enjoyed the whole thing. It is troubling when I see a player who is struggling with the same issues, who may be "trying" to apply some particular technique and get's in his own way. Your 19/30 approach makes a lot of sense.

[sauer]

I find it kind of odd that no matter how many time's I've been told to relax while I play, I just never got it right. I too have struggled with the same problems. Upon reading this earlier, I couldn't wait to try it out. It felt horribly odd at first (keep in mind I worked on this for about an hour and a half). My situation began similar to yours in that I got a note out that sounded really big and full. I went over to my mirror to see what I was doing. I'm not saying this is an instant fix, but I think if I implement the 19/30's and this technique into my practice, I can open up a whole new spectrum to my playing.

Thanks!
John

P.S. - The part that really helped was saying that Jeanne told you to just blow, don't form an embouchure. This made me realize that I always form it before I get to the mouthpiece.

[Arborwaychet]

I'll add my thanks to the long list. That feeling of 'power steering' or 'riding the air stream' is a marvelous one. As a caveat I stumbled on a series of videos by a guy called Urban Argas (he calls it his flow studies).

I think (although he is playing different notes) the ethos is very much in keeping with what you present - and in a way I like your way of contextualising the approach better. Anyawy, it seems to me he is working on the same problem - playing without tension.

All the best from Hong Kong

[veery715]

Any comments about wet vs dry lips / mouthpiece? I can't seem to get my lips to activate with just allowing the air to move them into place without them being wet.
_________________
veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.

[Fleebat]

Hi, Veery.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Lots going on today/tonight. Hard to tell without seeing/hearing you, but the following things come to mind. BTW, I have always played with a "dry" setting, but I do have the inner, red membranes of my lips most when I play. I don't believe it should matter, with regard to this exercise. Anyway, here are some things that come to mind:

1. Make sure that you are actually relaxing your lips. I don't mean to sound insulting - in my long lesson with Jeanne on that first day, during those frustrating first couple of hours, we actually raised our voices a couple times; me insisting that my whole face was relaxed, her saying, "No it's NOT!" What I'm saying is that even an experienced player can be fooled. After all, we spend all those years "making" an embouchure every time we put the horn to our faces. I have a friend who's a working pro, a lead player, who visited me not long after I'd been up to see Jeanne. I was trying to show him the things she'd shown me, and he COULD NOT (in the short time we spent on it) put the horn to his face without tensing his corners up. He thought he was doing it (same raised voices, same "yes I am!/No, you're not!" exchange.) I mean he just could not do it. Every time he'd head toward his face with the mouthpiece... bam... the whole setup flexed.

You know the "horseflap" thing that people talk about, where you just loosely flap your lips? The Bobby Shew thing? You might try doing that, and when you stop flapping, THAT'S the relaxed face. Leave it just like that. Don't "point" the lips into the m'piece, don't "set" the corners or roll the lips... don't do ANYTHING. As you put the horn up to your lips, take an easy, but fairly full breath through your nose, and just let it release into the horn. No thinking about buzzing or vibrations or anything else right then - only releasing the air. Remember that this is new for you - you're not used to making a sound like this. You may get an airball; keep the air going.

2. A lot of people (like me, for some years) have a habit of pulling the corners of their mouth back a touch, actually stretching the center somewhat to provide a firmer, more solid patch on which to set the mouthpiece. It's an awful habit no matter how you play, but I've known many trumpet players who do it. Make sure you're not doing that.

3. The first time I got an actual trumpet tone out of a really relaxed face (at Jeanne's), it was a big surprise. Not only because we'd been trying to get me to relax for a long time, but also because the feeling was so different from what it had always felt like to produce a note. One of the problems was that, when I "made" my embouchure in the usual way, the moves, "holds," tucks, rolls, etc. that I did to "get" my embouchure included things that brought my lips together. When you relax the chops, all that's gone. Is it possible that you don't actually have your lips together? Not pinched or pressed together - just resting on each other. I would make sure they're at least moist on the red membrane. I can't imagine why having your lips fully wet would stop you from being able to make the relaxed tone.

4. You might try, just to get the sensation, playing a low C instead of the C on the staff. It's possible that you're "aiming" for that C, even psychologically. Until you've had the sensation of creating a tone like this, you don't have any reference point to "aim" from. So if you are aiming for it, you're doing it with the muscle work - subtle as it may be - that you've always used. I would suggest blowing the lips into place without regard to what note comes out, just to get started. Once you've produced a tone that way, you'll get the idea.

If you still have trouble with this after trying for a while, I'd be very interested in working with you by phone or - better yet - Skype. I'm actually anxious to work with some people so I can learn more about it myself, and hopefully learn to help students who have trouble with it. I've only worked directly with five people on it at this point, three on Skype & two in person. Two of those people were having similar problems with it, and we were able to straighten it out pretty quickly. BTW, all five report good results from the exercise. I can't promise that this will be the be-all, end-all for you, or even that it would turn out to be a workable, useful thing. But it sure has helped me, and I would think it'd be worth your time.

Hope that's helpful.

RR

[Fleebat]

Hey, Veery! Update!

This might help a lot!

After posting my reply to you, I checked out a site that a couple people had mentioned in posts or PMs (I'm getting a lot of positive PMs on this subject - cool!). People have pointed out a guy whose approach they say seems similar to what we're doing with the 19/30s, and I went there to check it out. This guy has what he calls "flow studies," and as they start out I can see where some would find a similarity to what we're talking about. He says something at the beginning that I realized should have been my very first response to you:

"You need to know that your lips is vibrating properly." (He's a Swedish dude. The lips ist vibrating!). And he says - "If it doesn't properly vibrate, you need to accept it, until it comes - naturally."

Ding, Ding, Diing!

I mentioned something in my original PDF about NOT "doing" things (that you'd normally do) to get the tone started if you begin the exercise, let the air form the embouchure, and nothing comes out. Just keep the air going until the sound happens. I also mentioned that you could experience an airball at first. I think this guy and I are saying, basically, the same thing. Whatever you do, don't just try a short "blow," hear nothing, and stop. Let it happen.

Here's a link to a vid of this guy doing his "flow 1." His name is Urban Agnus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVREWJ4xfoI&eurl=http://www.urbanagnas.com/videos.asp&feature=player_embedded

Good luck!

BTW, it should be clear by now that I don't have any protectionist, proprietary thing going on here (I'm linking to someone else's vids, after all). I said early on that I don't believe I've invented or discovered anything - just combined some concepts from some very good teachers, added my own thoughts, and shared a little exercise I came up with from it. Yes, in the long term, I want to grow my local and online teaching practice, but this is all just in the interest of seeing how it might help people who've been through some of the trials I have, and learning about how others react & progress with it. Other than that, I don't have a dog in this fight!

Best,

RR

[Fleebat]

Okay, it's getting a little embarrassing carrying on a conversation with myself, but I had to post this. I checked out a couple more vids from Urban Agnas. I gotta say, my "first note of the day" sounds a lot better than the one in his Flow 1 vid, but I can't do this: (!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN_2WgoJf08&feature=related

Sure looks to me like he's letting the air blow the embouchure into place. (I'm glad mine doesn't look exactly like that!)

And, um...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg3HtkvDC-8&feature=related

Uh... check out what goes on at 1:24 in this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stq2u8-ycgU&feature=related

Dood! Clearly, I gotta start getting a crappier "first tone of the day"!

RR

[Kofipoiss]

I was going to ask you if you had seen the videos of Urban Agnas demonstrating his flow studies when I saw your last post
It is absolutely amazing to read about your experience at a time when I am taking lessons with one of urban Agnas' pupils! I really think you share more or less the same philosophy wich, for me, has been a revelation.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, looking forward to any updates!

[veery715]

Having risen at this absurd hour to let the cat in (we know who has trained who) I checked TH and didn't want to let the soliloquy continue uninterrupted by your respondent.

RR, thanks for elaborating and for the links to Urban Agnas' materials. I was a bit stymied last evening after giving your exercise a go, and was pretty sure that even though I was trying to relax that there was still something going on. So in my next practice session I will go at it again; in the meanwhile I will view the Agnas vids.

A funny thing about trying to relax - it's an almost oxymoronic concept. Despite being a modest amateur, I do have a long lifetime of operating using some not-very-helpful, at best, concepts. I will attempt some meditation as well to see if I can get myself into the right frame of mind (or no mind) at the next try.

asher
_________________
veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.

[oj]

Rusty,
We had Urban in Oslo some years ago (Norwegian Trumpet Forum).
He would go after all who played in his masterclasses - showing them how simple it can be.

We all played through his flow studies. They are great, but unless you relax like Rusty tell us, it will not be of much help.

Urban is a great player, so what he show on these videos is not how he sound when playing a concert (there are clips with him on YouTube doing that - also check them out).

The demo that Greg Spence from Australia gives can perhaps give people an easier way into relaxed playing.

To re-program the brain (getting rid of the lip tensing habits) Greg takes you through several stages without the horn. Those are really important!

Take a look at them (and do them while watching him):

1. Backswing (air exercise)
2. Slingshot (setting exercise - using a rim)
3. Mouthpiece (just blowing air through it)
4. Leadpipe (blow air through mpc - put it into leadpipe)
5. Shape (how the embouchure should work)

http://www.mysterytomastery.com

Ole

P.S.
Allen Vizzutti is also into this way of blowing - so I understand why he endorses Greg Spence teaching.

[Fleebat]

Ole,

Yes, I've seen the Allen Vizzutti Yamaha clinic video several times. There's some great stuff in that. I should make one distinction between the exercise I shared and the things Greg and Allen discuss regarding the "no buzz" idea. I was introduced some time ago - via Greg's site and Allen's clinics - to the concept of not "making" the lips buzz. In fact, I don't think either of those was the first place I learned about the idea. I believe in it, and understand the physics (to the degree that a non-physicist can understand them). But while I haven't relied on making a buzz for quite a while, I don't go out of my way to play that way. I don't make a point of it. What that material did in my case was to free me from the idea that I have to generate the buzz, which has allowed me to keep my focus on the sound, rather than the chops.

I think any trumpet player could benefit from going through/checking out those ideas via Greg or Allen. They're both amazing players and teachers of the highest repute. And while I do see a lot of similarity between Greg's approach and the things I'm doing with this little exercise - and see the obvious similarities between Greg's & Allen's advocacy of the no-buzz thing, I haven't seen anything happening with my little exercise that suggests its benefits are dependent on that particular part of their programs.

RR

[Young Man with a Horn]

Thanks for taking the time to share this Fleebat. A very simple but useful little exercise. All the best.

[dbacon]

DB

[nyctrumpeter]

[Fleebat]

Thanks, Dave. Hope you didn't mind my little jab. It was meant in fun. I'll check it out if & when I get the chance.

I'm headed to Albuquerque in February, and exchanging e-mails right now with Bobby Shew to schedule a lesson. Can't wait!

BTW, we're even; I don't remember much about "War And Peace," either! (Some Russian guys have serious disagreements with some French guys, as I recall. Intrigue and carnage ensue. There are women involved, at some points. Big surprise there.)

RR

[Derek Reaban]

Rusty,

Thanks so much for writing this! I too came to a point, years ago, that I was trying too hard; trying to control the sound. I also stumbled across the Bill Adam forum and began to ask question after question, and finally switches were thrown and lights were lit, as you describe.

I was shaking my head in agreement as I read through your experiences. I begin my playing day as you do, with relaxed long tones (although I choose to use Rich Willey’s FocalPoint book). It gives me the opportunity to simply let the sound develop on long tones without worrying about a long checklist of things to concern myself with. I simply listen to the sound.

I also liked the story about Wayne Bergeron towards the end of your PDF file related to corners. I’d never made that connection before. I’ll have to consider that idea in future practice sessions.

The Urban Agnas videos were great! I’ve known about him for years, but I’d never seen these simple exercises before. Clearly, it aligns with what you have written.

On a separate but related topic, I practice with my Son every night and have been doing this since June (he’s in 6th grade and started playing this school year). I’m very much of the mindset that you can’t MAKE things happen on the trumpet. You simply need to LET them happen without trying to control something physically.

We always begin our practice sessions doing a few exercises with a breathing bag (ala Arnold Jacobs). Then we play a few notes on the mouthpiece / leadpipe combination (ala Bill Adam). After that we do 2 simple flexibility exercises from Schlossberg.

We always play exercise number 7 in Schlossberg (the first line and the third line – ascending slurs). There are three half notes; it is an upward slur beginning on second line G (i.e. G-G-C), and the dynamics shown are mf > p. I have been telling him for months that he simply needs to start the exercise at a strong dynamic, keep that same dynamic as he plays the second half note and then decrescendo on that note and let the top note pop out. It’s a note inside a note (i.e. the G contains a piece of the C in it harmonically). I play the first valve combination and then he plays, so he hears exactly what I want just before he attempts the slur and we continue down chromatically with me modeling the sound before he plays. Occasionally, one or two of the slurs will pop out, but it is really hit or miss which ones will be this way (and a good interval will never happen on the first two or three valve combinations). Many times I hear him get that uncomfortable pushing quality (a crescendo to ascend) where the lower note simply gets sharper and louder but doesn’t break to the top note (and he gets frustrated).

Several nights ago he had played two of these combinations in a row with the top note simply popping out. He had started with a strong dynamic on the first note, continued with the same dynamic on the second note, and done a decrescendo exactly as I had demonstrated. I told him that by following this process every time, he would never have to worry about the top note coming out, it would simply happen on its own. He would never need to MAKE the interval happen, he would simply LET the note come out. I told him that this is a form of discipline, and he must release the idea of consciously TRYING (pushing, tightening, etc.), and just rely on this new found knowledge (I told him this is how I play).

Something dramatic happened with my Son’s playing last night that ties in with what you have written. Before we started the Schlossberg exercise, I reminded him about his success with this exercise the day before and talked him through our process. I told him that discipline would allow him to play this perfectly if he just allowed the notes come out without TRYING. Then I played the first valve combination, as I have been doing for months now (strong dynamic on the first two notes with a decrescendo leading to the top note popping out), but with him really listening and knowing what he was capable of doing. And guess what? He played every valve combination on line one perfectly, and only missed one of the intervals on line three when he TRIED to push the note out. I reminded him of discipline and simply LETTING the notes out with our process and he was right back on track.

With the concept that you describe with your 19/30s, it reminds me of what Chris Gekker says when he is talking about the Clarke Technical Studies. "Form follows function. If, on a daily basis, you establish a very efficient, relaxed approach to playing the trumpet, you will eventually become a trumpeter that can, on a daily basis, play the trumpet in a relaxed, smooth, and expressive manner."

Thanks again for sharing your story. More people need to hear success stories like this and understand that it can happen for them too.
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[dbacon]

DB