19/30s exercise explained

[veery715]

[BobD]

It's funny. I re-read the PDF and I found the parts about ascending and tensing not the corners but closer to the mouthpiece. I was actually doing that last night as I was practicing this exercise but thought it was wrong because, to me, that's not a completely relaxed embouchure. But I did notice that I played for an hour(and I don't rest that much) and at the end I could have played more very easily. And this is only my 3rd time practicing after being off for months and I was able to play the whole first exercise and etude in Clarke.

Also, the tensing of the area closer to the mpc sounds like what Urban Agnas was talking about in his first video. And it makes sense to not tense the actual corners of your lips cause , really that has minimal or no affect on the center of my emb.

I'm gonna keep at it and play everything from this mind set.

It really works to just think , relax and blow.
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[Fleebat]

V,

Articulation does re-introduce the challenges, huh? Did/does for me. I believe it's because we learn to tongue with all the "moves" in place. So when we've got the relaxed/flow thing going, and we introduce the tongue (for articulation), it makes us revert. When that crops up for me, I've had luck playing whole, then half, then quarter, then eighth notes on the leadpipe (Bill Adam-ish). You're not as tempted to manipulate the sound.

Since reading about Urban Agnas in this thread, I've tried a thing he does in one of the early videos; he puts his mouth all the way around the mouthpiece, and blows "tah-tah-tah-tah..." etc. Takes the horn & m'piece out of the equation for a minute. Feels like that has possibilities. I think the thing to try and accomplish is very much like the what the relaxed 19/30s do for tone, flow, and all that. We need to find ways to experience the sensation of tonguing without the tension. Once we do, just like with the sound/flow stuff, we can begin to acclimate, and finally manage it.

RR

[Fleebat]

Bob,

Yeah, I think I cited Greg Spencer when talking about the firming of the area around the mouthpiece in one of my posts - probably mixed up his videos with Urban Angus'. Or maybe Greg talks about it too. That could be.

Glad you're seeing some progress!

RR

[sauer]

Today at the beginning of band I asked my director to help me out by watching my embouchure as I played some. I played with my regular relatively tense embouchure first (C & F scales) and I then played with the relaxed setting and when I finished he noted that the second set of scales was much more full and resonant. He even mentioned it to sound beautiful. No one has ever called my sound beautiful before (I've gotten that it's good but a little edgy a lot). So after talking to him about it a little we returned from the practice room to class. We were playing jazz police. This is probably the first time I've felt my upper register feel like a lazer. I hit the first High E and it felt like it were a G or an A. Needless to say, I like!

[Greg Spence]

Hi all,

firstly let me say that it is SO refreshing to come back to TH and discover a very positive thread about such interesting and universal concepts.

My first impression of the PDF is "this guy (Rusty) is someone who LOVES the trumpet, is tormented by it (who isn't) and dedicated to improving (keeping an open mind)"

My first and foremost opinion is that in order to improve, you must have an open mind. If you don't, then you will continue practising the way you have been (that being good or bad) which begs the question, "Why are you looking for other ideas???"

You are going to have to do something pretty physically outrageous to damage the body so badly that you will go backwards; and the brain sets off alarm bells if you are doing something that extreme. In other word try anything and you may be surprised.

I do not consider myself a chop expert or visionary either, please lets be clear about that. I have and continue to work on my playing, have been exposed to AWESOME info (Yes, even living downunder, here in Melbourne) and try everything, experiment, research and apply. If it works, GREAT, if not, well it's not for me!!!

I have overcome just about all of the playing hurdles you could experience, even a broken embouchure after being randomly king hit, and I consider that a real plus as I can recognise in students what they are doing inefficiently.

RR's light bulbs I TOTALLY relate too, and you know what, if you are here reading our raves, then you are all on the right track because that is how you will find your answers you are looking for.

I love the Tongue Disclaimer, and yes we are totally on the same page. I can't play a high C after a low C without the tongue and jaw moving making the aperture corners firm.

PLEASE WATCH MY WARM - UP VIDEO It will hopefully affirm what RR was saying about supernatural powers and rituals. What do all trumpeters need to work on? Sound, Dynamics, Intervals, Articulation and Slurring. Thats all there is!!!

RR, you REALLY won me over when you said "Don't Blow"!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is my mantra: Go with the FLOW, RELEASE and SUPPORT, don't BLOW.

My MISSION is to remove the word BLOW from trumpet vernacular for ever because it instantly sends an instinctual thought of force. This may only take 1000 years but if we can start it here, that is a great start!

Another one, the "Diaphragm muscle" is such an old hat way of talking and thinking, aswell as being anatomically incorrect.

"...passing air through relaxed lip tissue..." AMEN

I would change the word "escape" in relation to air to "Support" or "Release" purely because it must preceeded by a deep breath to engage the elasticity of the body. (see my BackSwing and Slingshot videos. I apologise for the poor quality of some of the videos, it is all a work in progress)

Conclusion,

The PDF demonstrates a wonderful journey of discovery that all players need to embark on with open minds and absolutely no ego. Be aware of yourself, honest with yourself and observe, observe, observe. DON'T be emotional about technique, save your emotion for the music, just observe and learn.

I believe that the underlying message in the article is that of re-programming the brain! I live for this! I have my 2nd book coming out soon called "Re-Programming the Trumpet Machine", can you believe it??? How funny given the topic of this forum.

Now if you are still reading, that means you have time on your hands so please check out all of the videos then come back to me and honestly tell me you got NOTHING out of them. I am passionate about spreading this info, just like Rusty is, so watch them with an open mind, try them out and OBSERVE!

Rusty, Brilliant my friend!!!!!!! (Even though we have never met, HAHA)
Greg
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[Fleebat]

Greg,

Thanks for chiming in, and for contributing your thoughts/ideas. Also, thanks for the kind words (I would quibble with your assessment of me as "tormented.") I don't feel tormented much any more!

The two things that feel best about the conversation we're having here are, first, that so many have participated, and no one has jumped on anyone else or said they're "wrong" or any of that. I hate competition in art, and there's no competition here. It seems that all the people posting are exactly those I was trying to reach out to - players who've dealt with the same kind of struggles I have. And they've shared things with the rest of us in a helpful, useful manner. A rare thread, indeed!

Secondly, it's great to see that many people are finding the hoped-for results. Wow! I think we can safely say we're on to something!

I have a series of exercises based on these same concepts. I use them to coax similar results with tonguing, slurs... a number of other elements. I hope to post those when I think I've got some explanations and descriptions together.

RR

[veery715]

Each time I get back here my appetite for playing is boosted anew. And that says a lot considering how boosted it has been for the last 15 hours.

In another thread the OP has asked about a mouthpiece to "widen" the sound he gets on a particular horn. Nothing has ever "widened" my sound like the change in approach I learned today.

I want to add my thanks to Rusty's for Greg's "appearance" and further fanning the flames of my fire for playing the trumpet. What a great feeling it is!

And I want to say that one of my favorite statements of all time is: I hate competition in art... When that train leaves the station I want to be on it.

V.
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[Cunuckle Head]

[par10]

I read the whole thread and the PDF and identified with the concept for the following reason.

Whenever my 26 month old Granddaughter is around when I am practicing she loves to push the valves of the trumpet to hear the different sounds that it makes, a couple of times she has wanted to blow the instrument so I have held it in a position that enables her to rest her lips on the mouthpiece and blow.

She does not hold the trumpet neither does she press her lips on the mouthpiece with any degree of force or use a lot of force when she blows but she produces a note, not a good solid super C but a sound.

I share this, not to get into any argument about damage to young embouchures or boasting about the next super trumpet star, but because, to me, it added credibility to what RR was saying about the fact that if you had to know all the things that we feel we need to be doing with our embouchure to play the trumpet, then nobody would have played the first note on anything, it had to be as simple as RR says, back to my Granddaughter who is to young to comprehend what an embouchure is or what we mean about keeping the corners tight, yet she places her lips on a mouthpiece, blows and a sound comes out.

A very good article, well explained and worth the time spent reading it. It never hurts to get back to basics and to have it explained to us that all you have to do is breath.
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[jocar37]

Rusty, I just came upon this thread today and let me add my thanks for your pdf. Relaxing and focusing on the airstream is a great technique. I'm as excited as everyone else about the prospects of exploring this further over the next days and weeks.

The higher end of my range (which currently goes to D/E above high C) still has some tension to it, but I think less than before. I think I need to focus more on what you said about the corners relative to the mouthpiece. Still I wouldn't be surprised if I find some points of tension that I may not be conscious of that can be removed. No doubt watching Gary's and Urban's videos could facilitate these discoveries.

Beyond Rusty's pdf, this is definitely one of the best all time TH threads I've seen. Kudos to all!

Joel

[Fleebat]

Hey, All

I saw a post in one of the "satellite" threads that have cropped up about the 19/30s concept, and thought it might be interesting for those following this thread. It's right up the alley of what we've all been talking about. FivePointer chipped in with a comment, and I posted a reply. Maybe it'll help someone:

RR Oh... btw, I'm working on putting together some good suggestions/explanations for some of the other exercises that have grown out of this, that address the idea here - applying the concept as you begin to play the rest of your day's musical menu.

From FivePointer:

[Leather_Lips]

Veery715 pointed this thread out for me, and I've read through it thoroughly. (Thanks btw for putting in the effort to help others!)
After my initial shot at the 19/30 here's what occurred:
Trying to keep relaxed and simply breath the air out, putting mouthpiece to my lips air pushes my cheeks lips etc and escapes from the corners of my mouth (no sound). Tried this several times with same results. I'm trying to keep "relaxed". So I adjusted trying to use the blowing on a spoon of soup analogy. Now, quickly I got sound and pretty good sound. Thinking about what I was just doing, I think I have to be tensing my face some because I didn't have the same result as the "total relaxed" initial try. I think i'm "making" a "blowing the soup" embouchure now. Not sure if this is good or bad. If I'm not tensing any of my facial muscles, how do you get air through the horn instead of out the sides of your face? Blowing on a soup spoon, while not trying to tense my facial muscles, is tensing them (though not the way I normally do). Is that right? I didn't want to start looking at some of the other materials mentioned (other web site/materials) yet as I might just confuse things for myself. I'll continue to give this a shot with additional sessions to see if a "light bulb" turns on for me, but thought I'd drop my initial thoughts here in case those of you that have done this see where I may be going wrong (if I'm going wrong?)

THANKS

[jocar37]

I was thinking about the discussion of corners and focusing on the area closer to the mouthpiece when something occurred to me. Now maybe I'm not getting it, and there's a way to focus without adding any tension, but I don't see how that could work. Absence of tension is the goal, but complete absence of tension at all points along the range of the trumpet doesn't seem possible. Maybe I'm wrong, and I just need to understand more. But if tension is needed, it seems to me that what needs to be done is to figure out how to minimize it.

I've always understood "corners" to be the corners of the lips,where the top lip and bottom lip meet at the farthest point from the aperture. I never gave this any thought before. But if I'm focusing on the corners, I'm creating tension from this farthest point ALL THE WAY along both lips to the aperture.

So FWIW here's my "light bulb." Holding a weight up from the elbow seems easier than it does lifting from the shoulder with my arm extended. Maybe its better to focus not on the corners of the lips, or even some vague area around the mouthpiece (no offense, Rusty), but from the corners of the aperture itself. Sure, focusing on the mouthpiece area shortens the distance to from the point of focus to the aperture, but that may increase the area of tension when what needs to be addressed is the aperture itself. And based on the elbow vs. shoulder analogy, it seems the closer to the aperture you can put your focus (the area of the mouthpiece perhaps being an outside parameter, which would still be less than the corners), the shorter the distance you need to exert tension, and the more relaxed you can remain.

I tried this a little bit this morning, and it seemed to help. Of course, I'm still just starting out with this approach, but hopefully it will work as it seems to be doing, and maybe help others.

Joel

[Fleebat]

Leather,

Please refer to the part of the PDF (and a couple other places in your thorough reading of the thread) that describes using no more tension or flexing than it takes to keep the lips and face from collapsing. What you describe is allowing everything to collapse. That is flaccid, not merely relaxed. There are several references to avoiding letting everything become "flaccid." The "cooling soup" reference is in the PDF for a reason - to help with this very thing. While it would never occur to me to confuse relaxed with "flaccid," I understand that it would to some people, have seen this happen, and tried to forestall it with those kinds of references. Again, as we've discussed several times in the thread (and in the PDF), communication and interpretation are often the most difficult hurdles in trying to explain and understand concepts. If you were sitting, having a discussion with a friend, and he or she were talking at the moment, you listening, you wouldn't be tensing or flexing the muscles of your face - making an embouchure of you mouth, in the actual definition of the French word. But neither would you allow your jaw to go slack, your mouth to sit open, and drool run down your face. There's a difference between relaxed, and flaccid.

Something else that might help; please check out the part of the PDF and several exchanges in the thread related to "slightly firming" the circular/oval area defined by the eye teeth - what I and many others (including Greg Spence and Urban Agnas, I think), believe to be the corners of the embouchure (as opposed to the corners of the mouth). This happens when you ascend. It has to, and that's not something I'm just coming up with. It's in the PDF, it's in many of the posts on this thread. It goes hand-in-hand with the "focused stream" that the cooling-soup idea promotes. It's really here to be seen, I think, and if you can try to find it within all the text and within the concept stuff, that will help.

I also think you should check out the videos from Spence and Agnas that people have referenced here. I had never encountered Agnas, and it had been several years since I checked out Spence's site. Someone brought them to my attention in a PM, trying to be sensitive about territorial issues or proprietary concerns, so telling me privately about them. Man, I posted links to them! Each of these guys is well along in presenting a very, VERY similar idea to what I've presented. I'll try to have some video material to help communicate the my ideas, but these guys already have that going on. And I think watching each of them could help with exactly the issue you're having trouble with.

Lastly, here are a couple ideas I sent to another member via PM. He was having the same issue. These are things I came up with to help one of my students, and they cleared things up immediately for her. Hope they do the same for you. There's a tiny bit of repetition of what I've written above, but not much:

[Fleebat]

Jocar,

Glad to hear that you're finding this interesting. Coupla things...

First, I don't think you're skimming, but you might do well to read some of the other posts in this thread. I know there's a lot here by now, but it's clear from a couple things you've written that you haven't seen some issues addressed, and I think they have been, very directly. My most recent post, actually, addresses some of what you mention, but I started my reply to Leather Lips before your post came in.

From you:

So I adjusted trying to use the blowing on a spoon of soup analogy. Now, quickly I got sound and pretty good sound. Thinking about what I was just doing, I think I have to be tensing my face some because I didn't have the same result as the "total relaxed" initial try.

There is clearly something in my descriptions with regard to not allowing the face and lips to go totally flaccid which, now and then (apparently, two people now out of about fifty at this point) isn't connecting. I've tried to address this in subsequent posts, but I know this is a long thread. At some point soon I'll go over the PDF and see if I can't make it more clear.

As to your point about "corners," there's been much discussion here on that as well. Let's see if I can help there. The "area around the mouthpiece" is not at all vague. There is a very specific place at or near your, specifically your, eye teeth where the dental pallet begins to curve back and away from surface or plane formed by your front teeth. That place is not exactly the same for me, or any other player. That is why it's described as "somewhere near the eye teeth." But for you, and for me, it is very specific. The "area" is clearly defined, and the part of your lips that fall inside that area is supported by another, solid physical thing (your teeth). Everything outside that area (where the dental pallet curves back into your mouth) is completely unsupported by your teeth. Anything it does relies entirely on muscle. I (and Mr. Spence, and Mr. Agnas) am defining that inside area, the circular or oval patch actually supported by teeth (and, thus, jaw and upper dental/skull architecture) as the functional "embouchure." And the edges of that circle, we're defining as "the corners of your embouchure."

Tightening or manipulating the outer corners of the mouth, where the lips meet, has almost no effect on that central patch, and once you have the mouthpiece in place and have allowed the air to push the lips forward enough to create the seal (there is mouthpiece pressure in the other direction as well, of course... this isn't a "no pressure" thing), what you do in that area has no effect on the aperture. You're simply wasting energy on "meat that don't beat."

"Cooling a spoonful of soup" is not "something to think about." It is simply a visualization idea that's offered to help anyone (like you) who might have trouble with the idea that "relaxed" doesn't mean "flaccid." It's a way to help that person get set up in the first place, if the distinction isn't clear to them. Once you have the air flowing without losing air through the mouth corners, you get it. You don't have to think about it. Trust me, once you do that successfully (having "gotten" the distinction between relaxed and flaccid), you won't have to think about it. Again, its a visualization thing that will help you get set up in the first place with a relaxed, but not flaccid, face.

As for the aperture thing...

My suggestions include one about bringing the lips together without "pressing" them together. This is all the consideration of aperture advocated in this concept. Mr. Spence, as a major tenet of his presentation, suggests that the aperture be left VERY open (similar to Alan Vizzutti in this respect). And Mr. Agnas, in his videos, demonstrates the same "no buzz" approach to "aperture" as Vizzutti and Spence do; blow air into the mouthpiece without making it buzz, then insert mouthpiece into horn or leadpipe while blowing, and tone begins. None of us makes any consideration of aperture control or manipulation in our concepts (and, no, I do not put myself on their levels, at all!).

I'm keenly aware that aperture control and manipulation are key ingredients in some well-known methods or concepts. And I know that there are many who have success by thinking about that. There are those who believe it's the absolute foundation to good trumpet playing, and that any concept that excludes it can't possibly work. That's fine with me, but the years I spent trying to make it work didn't produce the results I desired. I think my posts here demonstrate that I'm open to thoughts and ideas about what we're discussing (hey, I even linked to other people who had different ways of presenting similar ideas), but I'm not posting in the "aperture control" forums or threads telling those people that their ideas aren't right because they don't jibe with mine.

The concept I describe runs absolutely in another direction, and working specifically, consciously to control the aperture sets all kinds of manipulations in motion that break down all the elements that have made this concept successful for me (and, from reading the posts here, for several others). Please understand, if I haven't made it clear already, that what I presented in the PDF and all the posts isn't something I was thinking about last week, and threw up here on the TH. This is something I've been working with, literally, in a dedicated way, for several years, through much study and practice and gigging. And I began that focused study of the ideas after working with other methods since I began playing in 1967. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT VALID. I've said very clearly that I don't claim it to be "the" way to play, or the "right" way, or the only way. It's a way. One that has proven valuable for me, and clearly for some others.

The subtitle of my little PDF is "Twenty Minutes That Changed My Trumpet Playing Life." It would be more accurate to have used, "Years of dedicated practice, study, experimentation, thought, teaching and gigging that changed..."

I'm not saying- in any way - that I've got everything about trumpet playing figured out. Wow! I don't think anyone could get that idea from my PDFs or posts. I'm only saying that this concept was developed over time, carefully, and is fairly fully-formed. So while I'm real open to discussion (like this), I'm not likely to respond to a post like yours with, "Oh, wow! Aperture! I never thought about that!"

Not trying to be a smart a$%, or diss you, or anything of the sort. Honestly.

When someone suggests a concept on a forum like this, there are usually three basic types of replies:

1. I'm trying this, and it's really helpful. Thanks!

2. I'm trying this, and having trouble making it work. Can you help?

3. This can't possibly work because:
a. So and so says this, and so and so studied with him.
or
b. I tried it, and it didn't work right away.
or
c. I do this other thing, and it works, so nothing else could possibly work.

My reactions to 1. have been: "Great! Glad to hear it!"

To #2, I've spent hours, literally many hours, writing PMs, explanatory posts, and on the phone & Skype trying to help people with it. I'm not the Mother Theresa of trumpet playing. But I know so well how it feels when you want to improve, you struggle so hard, and the next level seems so out of reach. I love it when some little thing I do shows promise in helping other players get over that. Plus my other gigs (writing and photography) are really slow right now, so I have time on my hands! Yikes!

To #3: No problem. In my own experience, and that of a growing number of others, if you trust this concept, apply it as suggested, including all the little elements, and stick with it for just a little while, you'll see a positive result. If that doesn't happen for you, you've wasted not much more time than it took to enter a post saying that it can't possibly work. I'm not "right," and I don't claim that anyone else is "wrong." But as I've said clearly, I'm not going to engage in a pedagogy war. I'm sure that #3 responders will move along to or stick with another concept that helps them realize all their playing aspirations.

I will say this; the only times I've seen this fail to help a player, one of three things is happening. Either something in the communication/interpretation process has broken down, they have skimmed or skipped some part of the idea, or they cannot break free of the desire to pick elements of it apart, compare them to other things they've heard or believe, and reject that part of it. I'm sure there are people that will do better with other concepts. Also those who will find some elements that work and some that don't. All I can do is present the concept and try to help those who want help making it work.

I hope I don't seem like I'm coming down on you. I'm not trying to. But we've got a wonderful little thread here that's been very positive and hasn't had ANY of the arguing, dissing, dissecting stuff that so often goes on, and I just wanted to see if I could avoid going there. Hopefully, I've also offered some ideas that will be helpful to you.

RR

[veery715]

Fleebat, you are a gentleman.

Since I got your ideas to work I have found it easier and easier to get the same result - producing a nice round broad sound with a relaxed face. I am practicing to keep producing sound that way while slowly working my range upwards and introducing articulation.

What helps me is to remember that I always "pinched" my lips together to make a buzz, and that pinching is where my tension and resultant fatigue start. As I try to firm up the corners to push my range up, I am consciously working to not pinch my lips - IOW, behind the mouthpiece -STAY LOOSE. I know I may be over-thinking, but that's how I operate.

Tonight I play the weekly jam with my jazz trio friends, and am excited to see how plays out. (double pun not intended).

A report will follow.

V.
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[Fleebat]

Hey, Veery

Cool! I don't think there's any problem in "keeping yourself on the road," with stuff like "stay loose" and so on. I find myself doing that too. Situations like you have tonight are where it's hardest. A single frack can make you bail & go back to relying on the tension stuff. Anything to make it through the gig.

I hope that at some point tonight it all kicks in, and you find yourself playing more easily and with less fatigue than you ever have. That's what happened for me... a little "trying" to keep it on the road at first, and then it just kinda slipped into high gear.

Remember that all you know about playing still applies - the musical stuff too. You're not really "doing" anything new - just letting go of some old pieces of baggage.

I'll be anxious to hear how it goes!

[veery715]

Well, IMO I never had a better sound. Things came easy for me and I was much more relaxed, though I did frack some, but less than usual. For me fracking happens when I break focus and don't support. I certainly wasn't "blowing" as much as I used to, so I had more air. And I think my intonation was better too. Toward the end - maybe all in all I played 1 1/2 hours, I did get tired. I don't think I can expect to keep old habits from kicking in, but I told myself to stay loose and kept my corners firm and I managed OK. It has only been a couple of days after all. I don't have the greatest range as it is (just above the staff), and my corners need plenty more training, even as I learn to stay loose behind the mouthpiece.

It is difficult, when you are improvising and trying to let your right brain dominate, to remember things one is supposed to not "think" about, and I think I was so enamored with the sound that I may have taken a few extra choruses, so maybe I played more than normal (whatever THAT is).

Tomorrow I have a lesson and will see what my teacher thinks. As far as I am concerned this whole new approach is a HUGE breakthrough, and I am convinced that keeping it up will be very rewarding, even though it may take some time to yield the full benefits. I feel like I am no longer fighting for results. Learning never stops and hopefully neither does growth.
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[Greg Spence]

Hi,

as has been said several times in this thread, this is a process of gradual re-programming. These great concepts WILL become natural in time but in my very own opinion, please please please avoid thinking about this stuff on the gig. You are a musician and want to express yourself. Imagine a french poet trying to emotionally recite the meaning of life and the passing of his favorite pet rabbit while thinking about his tongue position or his breathing. Might lose the affect???

Kinda joking but you know what I mean...observe and analyse your performance after the gig then go back to the practise room and continue re-programming, You WILL get to the stage where these steps and sensations are as natural as putting one foot after the other when walking.

Above are just my thoughts about it as it touches on performance anxiety (please don't let this thread sway into that!!!), BUT, awesome that you are taking on board the seriousness of Rusty's post and putting it into action.

Love the TRUMPET!!!!!!!!

Greg
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