19/30s exercise explained

[razeontherock]

RR: I remember many moon ago, we discussed things including my time on the 3rd floor in practice rooms with Bobby Burns. What you've got here, is what he was teaching me. Sweet, ain't it?

[veery715]

Oh, I didn't mean to cause alarm, Greg, the "gig" is just sitting in, in a pub, football on the TV, no $ for me, just a chance to play standards, of which I know hundreds. Tho' I do it for fun, it is very important to my mental health, to have an outlet for the musical beast inside me, and it is what drives my desire to improve my playing.

We may be talking reprogramming, but when it is something as fundamental as sound production, it is going to figure into the mix, albeit somewhat subliminally. I am awfully grateful to RR and you (& Mr. Agnas) for helping me gain insight into a new way to play.
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.

[Greg Spence]

Now that sounds good.... AND beeeer, mmmmm, beeeer.

Good that you are on the right track. People often get wound up in their technical endeavours on gigs; that can lead to real trouble.

And Rusty,

I meant to get back to you about the "tormented" quote: I can tell that those days are gone for you but if you were like me, it was the torment in the beginning that put you on your trumpet discovery trek?!

Cheers,
Greg
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https://mysterytomastery.com

[Fleebat]

Greg,

Ah, torment big time! Like most every trumpet player, I still have to work at it all the time, and I have a long way to go. But I sure don't miss those days of playing in fear that I couldn't cut the parts or last the night. You're right though - if not for all the years of torment, I wouldn't have kept seeking.

At a certain point, I guess any reasonable adult would bag it and find something to focus on that didn't seem so impossibly difficult. But my motto is that the only thing you can guarantee is that if you quit, you won't reach the goal. Still, I have to say that if I hadn't felt like I was on a path to an easier, better way (when these ideas started coalescing for me a few years ago), I may have eventually left the fold in frustration.

I'm really enjoying your website, btw! I'm planning to check out your books.

RR

[Greg Spence]

I had a chat with a trumpet player yesterday (who I am doing a show with) and he was astounded that a 50yo + person who read my book, got back to me with excitement about practising exercises in a new way. He was of the mindset that at 50 you should stop looking at look elsewhere for enjoyment.

Clerarly we are not of his mindset.

Someone has at the bottom of each of their posts (I remember this from years ago) "Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off the goal." I love that.

I am a firm believer that anyone can play some seriously heavy trumpet repertoire with the right info and some dedication!!!

Love you work!
Greg

P.S. I have uploaded more videos today so subscribe to the youtube channel and it will notify you when new videos go up, there are plenty to come. Cheers
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https://mysterytomastery.com

[mike ansberry]

I started working with this today. I've been moving in this direction for some time. Endurance has always been a problem for me. Years ago, I couldn't get through a page of duets without getting tired. For the last decade I've been moving in the right direction. I can get through a 4 hour gig without collapsing. But still, I could not play continuously for any length of time. Today, after working on 19/30s and using the same concept on my flexibility exercises, I played straight through the first Characteristic Study and then all of the Carnival of Venice variations without getting tired. The sound wasn't great, and it was kind of sloppy, but I was focused on relaxing. It made a difference. Maybe I'll be able to stay relaxed and clean things up as well in the near future.

thanks Rusty!
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

[Fleebat]

Mike,

You're about 40 minutes north of me - I think you got a little more snow than we did last night. Hope you're staying warm!

That sounds so familiar, exactly like experiences I had at a time when several ideas were kind of coming together after a long period of exploration (culminating in, well, this stuff). I'm sure my own thing will continue to develop. Hope so.

Anyhow, here's something that might help with the sloppiness (unless you just decide to embrace it as "personal style"!). Rist, check the part of the PDF about slightly firming the area transcribed by the eye teeth - the actual embouchure. Greg Spence (mysterytomastery.com) has a good video that talks about this on his site.

In our little concept, the firming of this area is WAY different (for me) that the isometric "hold" we develop throughout out chops and face over years of stacking manipulation upon manipulation. It's the steering wheel or joystick that allows us to keep things (inside and right around the mouthpiece) from falling apart as the tongue rises with range. I've found that playing the following (emphasis on the focus description) helps with accuracy problems or sloppiness as you're getting used to playing with a relaxed setup. Like the 19/30 exercise, it helps me experience the sensation of changing notes with the aid of the steering wheel, while keeping the relaxed feeling elsewhere and the air moving. It works with cleaning up the tonguing, slurring... all kinds of things. Also, like the 19/30s, what you play is desperately simple. It's how you play it, what you're focused on. Play through it, then see if one of the studies is a little easier to play cleanly. Kinda the next thing in the concept.

Here's that little exercise:

Quarter notes at around 60bpm.

Alternate first-space F to second-line G, super-slurred. (This is a mental visualization I use. It really just means you think of it all as one note, with a valve change in the middle of it. This helps reinforce the steady air idea. I know you know how to play this. Just try it using the visualization. The effect, when you've got it going, is like that of hitting the up & down buttons on an electronic tuner. Nothing happens outside of the note change. Happily, this has become habit for me with any slur).

Okay, now rest for a few seconds, then alternate F to A in the same manner. Remember that the focus is on airflow and relaxation. The F to G was about getting a reference point. F to A is where the bid'ness starts, as we're moving to the next set of harmonics. What we're going for here is the difference in sensation, and we've simplified everything so that will be easier you feel. (Think of PDF references to "peripheral awareness").

There's a balance point we're looking for. As you play from the F to the A, you may find that you're old, or "normal" way of making it over this small speed bump calls for a tiny "goose" via chop manipulation. If so, the focus on relaxed face and steady, relaxed airflow should allow you to make the change with far less manipulation, and you can do it with only the (very) slight firmness in the area mentioned above. No tightened mouth corners, no forced jaw movement, etc. If we raise our tongue instinctively to help "goose" it, the jaw wants to follow. Note: the whole concept involves not "holding" or flexing these parts - that includes not "holding" or keeping the jaw from moving - which takes flexing!

If you typically use air to "goose" your way over that little bump, the same should be true - you'll be able to use less, or none. Just a tiny bit of firming, if you need it, and only in the area we're talking about.

Play around with this alternating pattern for a few "reps." Then play the F to G again, for a few. We want the F to A to feel exactly like the F to G. Remember, we're talking about a peripheral awareness here, as our focus is on the relaxed thing and the air thing, and of course the sound. You'll have to play with it, then get to where you can make the physical things happen while returning focus to where it belongs.

When the idea clicks with you, sensation will be a little different from what it normally is when you play F to A. (Really!). For me, the revelation was how much I was interrupting the air to make even a small change like this.

Edit: Yikes! I forgot the Bb! Sorry if you read this before the edit. Before moving to the C, play the F to Bb. Jeeez. Sorry, everyone.

When you can play F to G and F to A back and forth for a few series with that sensation happening, rest for a minute or so, and then play F to C, open.
(of course, you could keep the process going as high as you want, and should, eventually).


The final step is to go from F to the third-space C, played 3nd & 3rd valve. This is hard (for me) as you tend to "stick" on the Ab before reaching the C. Airflow, relax. very slight firmness in the embouchure area defined by the eye teeth.

The idea is to maintain flow & relaxation while learning to apply the slight firmness. Keep using the super/slur visualization when it helps, and remember the idea about it sounding like the change is being made with an electronic tuner's up & down buttons. The idea is to feel/learn the sensation of playing this smoothly, within the relaxed/flow construct. Like the 19/30s, it's then pulled into play when you play other exercises and music. The hardest part is probably learning to introduce that slight, really slight firmness without falling back into all the other manipulations you're used to. We've de-constructed it all, and are now working to add one very, very small element back in without applying all that other, wasted effort.

Now rest a minute or so, and play an exercise. Any different?

Hope this helps,

RR

BTW, we live pretty close to each other, and have talked several times about hanging to talk trumpet. We should actually make that happen sometime before too long!

[Fleebat]

Hey, All

I kind of goobed up the description in that last post. This is one of the little exercises I use to help make the transition to the concept outlined in the 19/30s thing. Trying to do too much at one time today, and I just kind of blurted it out there trying to help Mike with the accuracy thing. I'm working on a better, more clear way of describing it. Hope to have all this stuff in text-plus-notation form before long, and of course that text will (hopefully) be more succinct (editing!).

Anyway, I hope no one goes crazy trying to decipher that last thing. I'll get a better version up as soon as I can.

The basic idea is to identify the issue you want to work on, play something where it's not an issue, then something where it is, and by alternating between them, make/allow the sensation of the former help you acquire the same sensation on the latter. Not sure I made that connection in the previous post. Again, sorry.

RR

[Derek Reaban]

Rusty,

I had a lesson with MrClean last year, and one of the things that we talked about was similar to the last two posts that you have written. Your super-slurred example going from first space F to second line G and then F to A, F to Bb without any bumping or excessive manipulation to get the intervals to speak is worth pointing you to several other posts.

In this post from my lesson with Jim, I have pointed to several articles from Jay Friedman, John Hagstrom, and Chris Martin related to Slow Valves, Pervasive Air. If you haven’t read these, I think you would enjoy them (simply to see how your 19/30s ideas fit in with what these players have written). It expands the idea to slurs and then articulation.

I wrote this post which provided a Detailed Example of Slow Valves, Pervasive Air, and gives a better feel for the nuts and bolts of the process.

Thanks.
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[Fleebat]

Hi, Derek

Thanks for sharing that stuff - I'm a little in the weeds tonight, but will check it out when I can. As we've discussed, none of these concepts are claimed to be new, or original. The manner of playing discussed here is, I think, a very unforced, un-contrived approach, and I'm sure many, many others through the decades have settled into similar or nearly-identical ideas. My little interpretation of these concepts is derived from (hopefully) careful study of the work of several great teachers (including some of the "usual suspects"!). Interesting for me, as you suggest, to hear that some philosophies from Hagstrom, Martin, Friedman et al follow similar lines of thought. I have not looked into the pedagogy of any of these players to any substantial depth, but I hope to, now that you've brought this up.

My last couple posts should should probably have been sent as PMs to Mike. I'm pretty comfortable describing the 19/30s exercise and the concept behind it; that concept is sort of a culmination of what I worked with for several years, and I've described it & talked around it for a while now with others one-on-one. The super-slur thing, with that exercise, is one of the subsequent, built-on things that I do in my own practice. It works well for me & is (in my head, anyway) just the next step in the same concept. But I've never really shared that with anyone else or sat down to work out any kind of presentation (though I have intended to at some point). My chops for explaining it are nil, but I just sort of gave it a shot when Mike raised his issue. Off-the-top-of-your-head advice isn't usually the best, which is why I posted that disclaimer. I'm sure your post gives, as you say, a better feel for the nuts and bolts.

RR

[Mark Curry]

Rusty, Greg, Urban, et. al...

I've been lurking on this thread for a week, surreptitiously doing Rusty's 19/30s as a warm-up the past 6 days, utilizing Greg's and Urban's approach to the start of the day...

My low register is returning!

I thought it was totally gone forever. It started getting bad about 10 years ago, losing focus and getting airy. I thought it was the typical lead player's curse of sucking below 2nd line G. I was even passing parts that had exposed low notes...

Last night's rehearsal was quite the success! Not only were the low notes there, but my upper register notes had quite a bit more beef to the sound.

I felt like I was gripping each note better than I had in years!

So, Rusty, Kudos for helping me sort this out.

I'm sorry you had to go through all that to get to this point- it sounded kinda bleak, brother. but the fact that you Shared it with all of us makes you Top of the Heap!!

mc
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A mouthpiece never missed a note by itself!

[Fleebat]

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad to hear that you're seeing some good results. One of the great things about playing guitar and bass all those years was that I could play all day & night if I wanted (and I wanted!). While there are layers of nuance in the touch on those instruments (and you can devote a lot of time to tone production), just getting a basic, good sound in all registers and lasting as long as you care to play simply aren't issues. For me, this made it possible to work on whatever technical, musical, stylistic or improvisational elements I wanted, for as long as it took to conquer them.

It always frustrated me that, with the trumpet, I spent a huge part of my time just making/keeping the sound happening, remaining competent with the very basics of getting around on the thing. As the concept(s) behind the 19/30s started coming together, all that became so much easier and more consistent. More and more of my time in the woodshed could be spent on content. And I could spend more and more time at it. That's where the fun and satisfaction of playing lies in the first place, for me anyhow - the content. And I know there are a lot of trumpet players in the same boat. Many never get to the good stuff!

I've always loved teaching, but for years I didn't feel completely comfortable teaching "trumpet," as I had sometimes had to struggle with some of that fundamental stuff myself. I had a lot to offer, from study and experience, but felt like there were some holes in the fundamental stuff. So I focused on improv lessons, theory lessons, and catered to the students who wanted to work on those things. Since these concepts started solidifying for me, I'm much more comfortable sitting down with another person, a couple horns, and some ground to gain in terms of basic trumpet playing. This is all in addition to what these ideas have done for my own playing/gigging pursuits.

I started this thread because I know there are lots of other people trying to get over that same fence. It won't unlock the same things for everyone, but hearing from people like you, for whom it has been helpful, makes it more than worth it! Again, thanks for sharing the positive results.

RR

[jocar37]

Rusty -

Well, I've been working the 19/30s (more like the 19/20s or 25s in my case, which is fine by me) for about a week, and thus far I've seen that in addition to having less strain (although I'm sure there's more I can reduce) and of course, more endurance, my tone is stronger and more even from top to bottom.

An improvement not anticipated but equally pleasing is that intervals are easier and I hit them with more confidence and consistency. I had just started working on Ceora, and the jumps in the head were a struggle, particularly to play with any real musicality. Before it was almost like I had to reset my chops, which I really don't feel happening now. It's coming much, much easier now. I won't say I have no tension going high, but the differential between middle of the staff and top to above the staff is minimal.

I am looking forward to continuing with this technique. Now that I've got it somewhat under my belt, I'm going to look a little more closely at the other websites mentioned in this thread.

Thanks again. And again!!

Joel

[Fleebat]

Joel,

Yeah, that "intervals" thing, which I think of as a function of flexibility, is one of the big benefits for me as well. I believe, although I don't have a tremendous interest in analyzing it to pieces, that the "blossom" or "glow" that gets settled during the exercise (response!) and the focus on steady airstream are what's at work here.

I've mentioned a few times in the thread that the exercise pointed out to me how drastically I was interrupting the air when making any kind of leap or interval skip. At that point, we regress to doing it with the chops. The tone-blossom thing, the airflow thing, helps fix that.

Glad it's helped!

RR

[Arborwaychet]

I've been practising this exercise since I first read your link (which really described your goals). I'm a 'hobbyist' but I do play 2-3 times a week jamming at various venues. This is always small combo playing and what I enjoy is the soloing ...

Sound is the beginning an ending for me and my particular concept is the mellow 'fluffy' approach of Chet in his later (post teeth loss) years. So in line with what I hear I now play on a 1B Bach. Previously it was a Schilke Symphonic Piece (a really good mouthpiece) and I was blowing double C every morning as part of my 'morning routine'. As soon as I bought the 1B (it was on sale - old unwanted stock!!) I fooled with it and became absolutely enthralled with the sound - darker and more resonant for me.

Well articulation actually improved (more room in there) but endurance and range suffered. I have perservered ... mainly because NOT being money player I can jam for as long or short a time as I wish. I gave up playing to the double C in the mornings and just did my usual Irons / Arban routine every morning and played jazz every evening )Aebersolds and other play a longs as well as some riffs from books like the David Baker 'Bebop'.

... Okay read your post. Started the 19/30s and noted that by the time I got to the low C there was a tremelo creeping in (caused by muscle fatigue ... no doubt about it!). I've been playing soft ... VERY soft (and I hope that's ok) and focusing on keeping the sound even abd vibrato LESS. How this has worked is something I have yet to think through before attempting to theorise on it BUT even in this very very brief time I've become stronger. Last night I did the 19/30s and then blew some arppeggios straight up to the double C and it was effortless. I then played along with some chord progression exercises and play a longs (for one hour!) wow the sound HAD opened up. The tone and power were measurably improved and that range improvement (whilst laughable for the pros!!!) is interesting because even 'owning' the B was not a reality on a 'bad' morning.

So ... thanks are in order. And I'd very much like to know at what dynamic you blow the 19/30s ... due to the fact that I have made progress on making the sound even throughout the series by playing the tones pp.

All the best from Hong Kong

[Fleebat]

Chet,

Glad to hear that you've had some good results. Wow - Hong Kong... sounds very exotic!

I experience that "tremolo" down low (it strikes me as an involuntary quiver... hope we're talking about the same thing) occasionally, always when I'm kind of out of shape and need to sort of "center" things with some 19/30s-type playing. When it happens to me, it feels like my out-of-shape-ness is influencing me to "hold" things together down there, and the quiver comes from the tug-of-war between long-established habits and my attempts to let things stay relaxed. And for me, just staying with it, for one thing, helps eliminate the issue, as does re-assessing the air flow (which, by happy coincidence, leads to your question about dynamics).

In some of my posts here, I've talked about the sensation that develops when we allow the trumpet to work as designed. I've said that we get so far away from feeling/experiencing how the human-plus-trumpet system wants to work, that we can hardly recognize it after a while. In my mind, that's what the exercise and concept is all about; establishing - for the first time, for some players - what that feels like, and staying with it until the sound "blossoms" or begins to have a kind of "glow" around it.

Remember that one of the basic ideas here is that you ALLOW the air to flow out. Without "blowing" it out. Check the PDF, and notice in the numbered suggestions that we're starting without the horn, just LETTING the air flow out on its own. I gently put my lips together, so that an aperture is created by the (gentle) flow. The point is that THIS level of airflow will allow you to see/hear/feel the "machine" working the way it's supposed to. So that dictates the volume of the exercise. I don't think any certain dynamic. I'm going for that "setup," where the horn and I start to "sync up," the "blossom" happens, and the whole system is working. And simply allowing the air to escape gets that happening. If I try to restrict things so as to play softly, or "push" to get more volume (at this point), I'm going to be manipulating something. And that runs counter to that setup feel I want to establish.

I recommend that you try the exercise without "aiming" for a particular dynamic/volume. Just let the unforced airflow dictate that.

Like all the things that begin to settle in with the exercise, you want to be able to kind of drag-and-drop this sensation into whatever you play afterward. And at least for me, that natural exhalation seems to necessary in getting to the sensation.

In the Yamaha Allen Vizzutti clinic (find it on the Yamaha "Hub"), A.V. makes an off-hand remark that I think is very telling. He's talking about routine, about getting stuck in a place where you spend all your time playing an involved routine and you realize that you never get to the point of playing actual music. In explaining this idea, he says something like, "... so you're playing this routine thing all the time, and you start to get to a level of tone production where you're making a sound with some power behind it..."

Aha! That was a light bulb for me. We always thing that, to play louder, we just blow harder. But the exercise - when you get to the sensation, "glow" thing, transforms the "note" you're playing into a "sound." It's much bigger. And at that point, for me anyway, there's a kind of realization that happens with respect to volume. I don't have to increase the "push" nearly as hard. I've described it as being like the power steering kicking in. I could also say that it's like someone "fixed" my volume control.

Anyhow, give that a try - just be happily surprised by whatever volume results from the air being allowed to flow out on its own. Once you get the glow thing, the blossom thing happening, you should be able to apply it to louder and softer playing.

If playing pp helps with some aperture issue or response issue or whatever, I would play some exercises/etudes/music in that way, focused on that soft-playing thing. But try the 19/30s thing as described above, without any other parameters or constraints. The concept really only locked in for me when I did that.

Hope that's helpful.

RR

[Derek Reaban]

Rusty,

[Derek Reaban]

Rusty,

The reason I like your terminology so much is that it describes not only the sound quality, but the process in arriving at that sound quality. When a flower blooms or blossoms, it is something that you can observe; but it is not something that you can control. It must happen on its own without any outside manipulation. Our sound, like the flower, is delicate at first and then grows with gentle encouragement into something that is vibrant and beautiful. You can’t make this happen. You must simply observe and be encouraging and LET it happen.

What a perfect analogy. Thanks!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[Fleebat]

Derek,


Took me a while to get back to the thread. Couple gigs, teaching, home renovation... things pile up. Anyhow,

Glad to hear that you found something that rang true in the analogy (ies). Friends and family tease me about being "Captain Analogy," but that kind of comparisons work pretty well for me.

The idea of keeping things basic (going with the way I believe the trumpet was designed to work in the first place), and letting the sound/feel come around really is key. I did a Skype lesson with a fellow from out west over the weekend which pointed that up to me yet again. It was hard for him, at first, to avoid the temptation to make things happen - to make changes/alterations that would force things to start working. Took a while to get him to just play, let the "system" come online, as it were, and let it settle in. When he finally let go and did that, it only took a few minutes of gentle coaxing to keep him at it, and the sound did indeed start to "blossom." It was so obvious, even via Skype. He was really startled! Kind of freaked him out, after years of manipulating from the starting note. I heard back from him the next day, and he was seeing good results.

My own little world got over-scheduled in the past week, and I had a couple days where I just couldn't spend any quality time on the horn. By now, avoiding the manipulation temptation is well ingrained for me, so getting the flow going, playing through the exercise with the right focus & waiting for the "glow" to appear is kind of second nature. Had myself up & running in about twenty minutes.

I think it's important to note that there's no hard ritual here. I tried to make that clear in all the posts and the PDF. If you're in shape, playing every day and all, it usually only takes a few minutes to get it all happening (so long as you don't try to manipulate it to get it there... that can just make for a long, frustrating session with the horn). I try to play through the entire 19 series every day, even though things usually loosen up and the glow/blossom thing is working early on. But if I'm in shape, doing a shorter version or even having to skip it altogether in favor of a few simple long tones is enough. So long as I let the sound - the blossom/glow thing - emerge as opposed to trying to make it happen, it has never failed me.

EDIT: I should mention that I don't consider the exercise, or any of this, in any way to be a substitute for maintenance playing, for daily practice. I think we've all been careful to note that this is about getting yourself set up to work with the horn as opposed to against its designed functionality. It does help immensely with endurance, range, flexibility and a host of other things, but only, IMHO, by inducing the sensation of playing with a relaxed embouchure & steady, easy air flowing - while avoiding the isometric tension that "is" trumpet playing as so many of us were taught. Again, this doesn't replace regular, dedicated time in the practice room, normal fundamental exercises, or thoughtful work toward improving. It's just a good way to learn what a great, unforced setup feels and sounds like.

RR

[w00005414]

Hi Rusty,

What a coincidence that I recently had this same breakthrough in my playing over the last couple of weeks and then I find your 19/30 article! The only difference between what I am experiencing and what you mention is how you release the air (and this is probably just semantics). When I play now I feel like I am singing or fogging up a mirror, there seems to be no real "blow" involved. I know you mentioned the idea of blowing on hot soup to cool it off but even that action, for me, makes me think of tensing up the corners to project the air.

Thanks so much for making this info available. BTW, I am in Massachusetts so I might go seek out Jeanne for a lesson

Take care,
Brian
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Brian Gibson