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19/30s exercise explained


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jocar37
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 19/30's really helped me with reducing a lot of tension. And I would second the recommendation for Greg Spence's www.MysterytoMastery.com. I bought the e-book and have found it very helpful.

Also, I like Pops' very thorough comments in this TH thread: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91083&highlight=.
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FLgargoyle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll check out that website- thanks!

I've been playing Eb alto horn exclusively for the last year, and, of course, the choir director wants trumpet for Easter. I've been trying to whip my lip into shape now for trumpet, and noted some interesting differences. It's much harder to do the 19/30's on the smaller mpc. It seems to take about twice as much air (?!) I can hold a note for about 40 seconds on the bigger alto horn, with a much bigger mpc. and aperture. On the trumpet, 30 seconds was almost impossible. I would have thought it would be the other way around. Also, I noticed that the pitch could go a full half-step flat on the trumpet when completely relaxed. The alto barely budged on pitch.

I know one thing- it's time to try a bigger mpc. for my trumpet, especially if I'm going to switch back and forth. I'm currently using a Bach 5B Megatone, the biggest 'piece I own. I used to use a 10-1/2C, and wondered how people could play with a 1-1/2. Now, it's the other way around. And recommendations for a big, roomy mouthpiece for classical/church playing?
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also been trying the method explained by Rusty and I must say I'm enthousiastic about the positive effect it has on my endurance ... so far so good

HOWEVER ... the bands I play in also do a bit of marching besides the usual concert work and I don't seem able to combine this method while marching. When I march, I press my trumpet much harder against my lips and automaticly play with much more pressure. Specially when the underground is not nice and egal.

So my question is : does anybody has tips or tricks so I can also use a more relaxed way of playing while marching?
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Zeé
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can see if you can alter your footfall to be smoother as you march, something like a 'roll step' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_step) to minimize upper-body jostling, maybe you can use less pressure then.

Also, try not to overblow when marching; that's easy to fall into when you don't have the feedback of a closed performance space. Maybe use a similar mouthpiece to what you normally play with a shallower cup as well, that can help you cut through with less effort.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The embouchure set up that I developed through the 19/30s has somehow combined with a Claude Gordon drawstring type embouchure. It seems to be more impervious to pressure.
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terrysawchuk
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good read, Rusty-Thanks!
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hdswriter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is so incredibly timely for me. Came over from TM on a recommendation to read this thread.

Background:

Was planning on a career in music on trumpet as a young kid. Was off to a great start until I got into high school and between my band director's penchant for original Woody Herman charts (was playing lead) in big band, screaming stuff in marching band, and my incessant desire to practice, I crashed my chops (more like destroyed them). Worked with my teacher and took some lessons with Caruso. Was an upstream player and they thought the solution was to switch me to downstream. I was so screwed up in the head after all was said and done, it never took. I also was unable to return to upstream. All of the mouthpiece buzzing made it impossible to find my old embouchure. Became a sax player and had a very nice career. I love music and sax became a vehicle, but I never fell in love with it as I did with trumpet. But, where there is a will...

Have tried to get it working again several times over the years with no success. I'm 49 now and have finally got it working. The interesting part is that I have been focusing on relaxation and tongue movement just as described in your article. I have heard so much advice over the years and read so many articles and posts about what should be done with the embouchure. It is really nice to read something that supports what it is that I'm doing. It's working beautifully, so it's not that I actually needed corroboration, but it just felt good to read this this morning and continue my celebration of my return to trumpet.

Thanks, Rusty. Great read. I look forward to further investigating your other thoughts on playing.

Cheers!

Keith
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Fleebat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, All. It's been ages since I checked in on TH... A lot has transpired in the interim; mostly, I decided some time ago to jump on opportunities that came up as a bass player, and have been happily busy with that. I'm back to doing music full time, playing better stuff (mostly) than I've ever played in my life with good musicians, staying real busy at it, and making a decent living. The good news, I guess, is that I'm too busy playing music to be a trumpet player these days. Go figure.

A TH'er (thanks, Mike!) messaged me to say that he thought a number of people had found the 1930s thing helpful, and it really made me feel good. As I told him in my reply, that exercise and those principles FINALLY, after years and years, helped me "slay the dragon" that I'd been fighting with the horn since I was a kid. I'm not sure I could have moved on and felt good about it if that hadn't been the case.

Not sure when or if I'll have time or occasion to get into the horn again. I've done more bass playing than anything else in my life, and I kind of feel "home." It's funny... occasionally I'll get a call for a little session or a gig, and realize after a minute or so that they're calling me for trumpet. I have to pass them along to someone else! (But if you need a bass player... um...).

I've missed a lot of good wishes and happy news from people since I went missing, and I'm sorry for that. (Probably missed some pretty substantial flame-throwing, too!). I'll try to be better about keeping up. Thanks for the kind words, when they've come around. Rusty Russell
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:


To be honest... it is some of the best that has come out of Trumpetherald.


The best advice you received on Trumpet Herald then?
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Started Greg Spence a month ago, and was starting to get his ideas. Your exercise and as importantly - the way you explained it opened my eyes to a lot of things I had been told but for some reason was unable to experience in playing. I was already going down this path at a run, but your exercise save me an unknown amount of time (given other paths it may have been quite some time) in letting me know what others were talking about. Tensionless has become a mere buzzword and although I understood the concepts of it I had never felt it. The open mind is key, as is the just do it principle. I didn’t think it thru, I just tried it and a lot of things I was close to started to click. Ive been doing it for 2 weeks now and haven’t added a note to my range, but the quality of the notes I had are vastly different. A hi c as strong as a low c, without adding volume or bulging my eyes!! I can now feel how my tongue is off when I miss a note, and its usually easily seen how to correct. Every time I do an octave jump without lip/corner manipulation I think less about the lip corner and more about my tongue and support. Success reinforces itself. I can see a time when the lips simply aren’t something that will enter my mind. Jim Manley told me of some experiences he had with the Maynard and he said the lips weren’t it. Jim also uses some things to redirect your thinking on range that will certainly help. The feeling and my gosh the SOUND of doing things this way will keep me on the track forever. You cannot argue with something that works out of the box and improves sound feel and endurance.

I know you’ve moved on to the lower octave but I am hoping that you can further explain how to expand range using this. I can see it going along with the idea of Pops of playing a large number of notes in the range, and given how much easier it is to play I did 75 hi F’s today. A week ago I could do only 30. I still have an hour or 2 to play tonite so I may get another 50 in if I’m lucky.

Main reason for writing was just to say thanks for the gift 🎁 🎺Freely given and wildly successful for me. If you ever pass thru WV, send me a note and Ill buy you the best steak in town!
Rod
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know you’ve moved on to the lower octave but I am hoping that you can further explain how to expand range using this. I can see it going along with the idea of Pops of playing a large number of notes in the range, and given how much easier it is to play I did 75 hi F’s today. A week ago I could do only 30. I still have an hour or 2 to play tonite so I may get another 50 in if I’m lucky.


Well there you go Rod, you answered your own question. Just continue to do Pops' techniques with your newfound relaxation. You could also check out Lynn Nicholson's concepts and Larry Meregliano talking about the Cat Anderson 20 min 'G'. How's your equipment? Are you looking for a big, bright lead sound? Or more of a darker, prettier jazz/classical sound? If you want a bright lead sound, get an underpart with your rim that is either a very shallow bowl shape with a tight throat, or a very shallow straight V cup. If you want a darker, prettier sound, I recommend going with a medium to medium-deep straight V cup. I find this more efficient than going to a deeper Bach 'C' or 'B' style cup and you get the same dark sound. If you like small diameters, Jim New's new Jim Manley line and/or Derek Saidak's MF FBL line is definitely worth checking out. Either of these cats would also probably make you a custom piece with their underpart on your rim. All the very best, Lex
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Quote:
I know you’ve moved on to the lower octave but I am hoping that you can further explain how to expand range using this. I can see it going along with the idea of Pops of playing a large number of notes in the range, and given how much easier it is to play I did 75 hi F’s today. A week ago I could do only 30. I still have an hour or 2 to play tonite so I may get another 50 in if I’m lucky.


Well there you go Rod, you answered your own question. Just continue to do Pops' techniques with your newfound relaxation. You could also check out Lynn Nicholson's concepts and Larry Meregliano talking about the Cat Anderson 20 min 'G'. How's your equipment? Are you looking for a big, bright lead sound? Or more of a darker, prettier jazz/classical sound? If you want a bright lead sound, get an underpart with your rim that is either a very shallow bowl shape with a tight throat, or a very shallow straight V cup. If you want a darker, prettier sound, I recommend going with a medium to medium-deep straight V cup. I find this more efficient than going to a deeper Bach 'C' or 'B' style cup and you get the same dark sound. If you like small diameters, Jim New's new Jim Manley line and/or Derek Saidak's MF FBL line is definitely worth checking out. Either of these cats would also probably make you a custom piece with their underpart on your rim. All the very best, Lex


Lex thanks for the thoughts.
Btw - I like both classical "sound but also lead , if I do it right I can have both. In the 60's I played lead but was also good with ballad type playing. I like sweet and hot.
I play a .460 bore Eclipse enigma with a slightly open pipe but have ability to change to any of 7 pipes. Horn has a solid silver bell. Very good horn!! Much better than me.
I split play between 2 mps a Monette b4l and a Jim New with a buddy x5 rim and a MF holy grail cup. Almost no bite. I have no issues playing on either and tone and sound are about same. The Monette easier to play below staff and the Buddy/MF faster with a full step more in range. My sound on these is much richer and clearer than on bigger pieces even in and below the staff. Glad I found smaller pieces, my sound at least improved greatly. If I sounded better on bigger pieces I'd play them. Never played for any amount of time on bigger than 7c so ymmv.
I'm still just so amazed that such a big difference came from such a small exercise! Like I've said before I was chasing this for 2 years and had heard all the words and concepts but till I felt it, none of the words had a context. If someone had shown me this 6 months after 6 months of playing when I was 12 years old - my life would have gone in a different direction ( good or bad haha). I now have a chance to play well enough to let the music come out how I hear it in my head. It will now allow me to concentrate on music!
Rod
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wiemelen wrote:
I've also been trying the method explained by Rusty and I must say I'm enthousiastic about the positive effect it has on my endurance ... so far so good

HOWEVER ... the bands I play in also do a bit of marching besides the usual concert work and I don't seem able to combine this method while marching. When I march, I press my trumpet much harder against my lips and automaticly play with much more pressure. Specially when the underground is not nice and egal.

So my question is : does anybody has tips or tricks so I can also use a more relaxed way of playing while marching?


I only used the 19/30s in practice. Over time (not too very long) they just crept their way into my playing. No drastic changes.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I only used the 19/30s in practice. Over time (not too very long) they just crept their way into my playing. No drastic changes.


Like all other good trumpet exercises. Do them when you're doing them, but forget about them when you're practicing music and on the gig!
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I split play between 2 mps a Monette b4l and a Jim New with a buddy x5 rim and a MF holy grail cup. Almost no bite. I have no issues playing on either and tone and sound are about same

Rod, you need to get the Callet JAZZ mouthpiece.. It's a perfect compliment/match to the X5 rim and is an absolutely wonderful sounding small group jazz and classical mouthpiece
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doitallman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the information.
Im happy to say I read the entire thing and have connected to it in a very good way.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never bothered about the philosophy behind the concept of the 19/30 exercise but for me it's a great exercise to revive my chops after some days with no or hardly playing like today after a gruesome 14 hours flight last Friday.
BTW I extended the 19/30 to a 23/30 by adding low F and a repetition of C sharp, D and D sharp because I think that those low notes with the use of combinations with the third slide need extra attention.
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am following the 19/30 fever too for more than one week now: great revelation! Thanks for sharing this in detail!
I would like to share my own experience with it so far:

1. I found beginning at middle C from scratch is not as good as starting at middle G downwards; after reaching f sharp I continue from middle G up to middle C. So I separated the 19/ into 14/ down and 6/ up.

2. I reduced duration of each note from /30 to about only /10 seconds, or just as long as the sound begins to stabilize.

3. I use special hardware: Jet-Tone MF convex v-cup

regarding 1:

I found to begin with some higher setup as middle G (for instance on middle C) is like any “setup”: there should be no “setup” at all. The loosly “M” closed lips have to find their own way in the mouthpiece only with constant air support and controlling the sound by ear.
So the second part of my action from middle G up to middle C transforms the “no setup” into the higher area. There are tendencies to begin to manipulate the loose lip setting – see 3.

regarding 2:

I found even having experimented with circular breathing over several minutes each note does not bring more effect than about 10 seconds each note. Sure playing longer will train the breathing apparatus but for this I like more musical phrases. One has to consider long tone vs transition between notes and the overall time to spend for some exercise.

regarding 3:

This I would consider my main factor doing this exercise. Even because I am playing all Maynard configurations as it comes to mouthpieces (concave, straight, convex v-cup), on this exercise I found very clear and obvious that any edge on the inside rim (low alpha angle) tends to invoke some conscious lip forcing which should better be omitted here. I aim to let do the work completely by air and mouthpiece. Lips need only to be in place to vibrate.

Whereas if I am using the convex v-cup configuration of Maynard (Jet Tone MF, Nicholson XPiece) you really can feel the automatic and subtle adjustment of the lips when ascending or descending. Lynn would call this adjustment in his MHM a “shift” – his shift is to be done only at some point in the high register, whereas using the Jet-Tone MF for example you will feel some slow and graduated shift movement from the inner lip flesh to the outside on any higher note following a lower note. This is clearly done by the intelligent design of the convex v-cup – there is no cutting line in the inner cup to stop that automatic shift process. One has a steady feel from the respiration apparatus to the sound without the need of manipulating the lip setting; the only thing is to keep the lips loosely in “M” position.

For me this is evidence why Maynard in his last years before radical changing to conventional cups (Monette MF II/III) was on the convex and “rimless” design for about 20 years:

1942-1955 sanded to the v-cup portion Rudy Muck mouthpiece (slightly concave v-cup)

1955-1962 Calicchio Mouthpiece – holy grail (slightly concave v-cup)

1962-1967 Giardinelli MF1 – near straight v-cup; bit deeper

1967-1972 FBL – straigt v-cup; bit deeper

1972-1977 Holton MF pieces – straight v-cup, more deep

1977-1996 convex v-cup (first Jet-Tone MF, after 1993 Monette MF until MF II/III around 2000?)

…the above may be incorrect in some detail but this is what I found.
So doing this exercise with a true Maynard v-cup – best convex - should be most beneficial.

I know 99% of players will not agree and have trouble with that mouthpiece design; some my feel the Jet-Tone MF convex v-vup sucks the whole face into the cup even when the original #19 bore is used (recomanded!) - but that is part of the intelligent design: one only has to resist a bit this tendency by maintaining a light "M" Position - no pressing, just keeping the seal! So give it a try with this tremendous exercise and focus on sound while replacing any “setup” of lips or facial structure – mental or physical.

Doing this with that tool is really inspiring and meditative -playing trumpet like singing.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting observations shak! Thanks for sharing that. It hadn't occurred to me before, but I wonder if the 19/30's exercise could help make playing a design like the Lynn's Xtreme or the MF Jet-Tone more efficient. Do you notice any increase in efficiency, range, endurance after doing the 19/30's exercise with that piece? Maybe it's too soon to tell since you've only been doing it a week - but keep us posted man! Thanks and all the very best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow..I did it a couple of times since last night/this morning. I noticed some tension in my playing I didn't realize. It interesting to me because, even if I feel my sound is coming out easily and there are no problems in my regular playing, this exercise, with Lynn's X-piece piece, exposed some tension. Going back to regular playing I can really notice my playing is more relaxed and everything is more efficient and easily produced..range, sound.. You may be onto something here shak! Will keep working with the 19/30's with the X-piece and post further results. All the very best, Lex
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