Yamaha Xeno vs. Bach Strad vs. Zeus G vs. Conn V1

[Bartok]

It seems very clear that Bachs are only good by accident. It is not the norm to find a good Bach, only if you get lucky or if you spend some serious time testing 20 or 30 of them.

-Tptbell


It sounds as if you are not a bach fan. But, as a professional who has played many horns over the years, bachs consistancy is far better than the cries on the TH would tell you. 90% of the players on the TH are amateurs who are caught up in gimmicks, toys, looks, etc. They always want "the cutting edge of technology". They believe everything they hear and consider it gospel.

Like I said in my last post, there are many fine hornmakers thesedays. But, Bach and Yamaha are still the tops....They make 10,000 horns to many companies 100 but it's these small companies that are very often trying to copy Bach's construction. There will always be dogs out there. I've played so many dog Callet's with worse intonation than any bach I've ever tried. And, of course there are Bachs and Yamaha dogs as well.....and Monettes, Lawlers, Kanstul, etc.


Tptbell says he doesn't want to try out 20 horns to find one. Being a professional player, I will try out 100 if I had too. I understand that small music stores won't have the selection. Giardinelli and WWBS will send you out a bunch of trial horns though.

Just some more food for thought!

No company is perfect.....even if they think and tell you they are!

[TopGun]

[gzent]

You are right when you say most people on TH are not pros. What I
don't agree with is the idea that the Bach quality problem is not
for real.

I play with several players, each with decades of experience as performers
and directors, and they are too busy to keep up on all the very latest brands
and toys. They certainly don't know about TH. They will tell you that
new Strads are not in the same league as old ones, and if you are going to
buy one you better test 5-10 of them if you want one that plays well.
They should know, they both have vintage Strads and have been asked to
play test new ones for other performers.

These are common perceptions out there, not just at TH.

gzent

[Bartok]

I play with several players, each with decades of experience as performers
and directors -GZent

If you ask people of an older generation, they will say [ Cars aren't built like they used to be. Houses aren't built like they used to be. etc.]

Why not say the same about trumpets!

As I said earlier...I've played tons of Mt. Vernons that were crap!

You tell me that to get a good one, you need to play 5-10 horns. Hell, I don't care if you are the worst trumpet player or the best trumpet player buying the world's greatest trumpet......you DO NEED TO TRY OUT A BUNCH!!!! If you don't, you lose out. NO TWO TRUMPETS PLAY ALIKE! Not Monettes, Bach ,Yamahas, Lawlers, WT, Callets, Bundys, Olds, Conns, etc.

[oneeyedhobbit]

Bartok, I don't mean to start a flame war here, but in one post you claimed that you were a pro-you said "being a pro, I'd be willing to try 100s." So who exactly are you? The reason I ask is I've had three of the trumpet players in the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra tell me of Bach's inconsistency-not that they were bad horns or anything, but to be careful or I'd end up with a clinker. Manny Laureano, Charles Lazareus, and Robert Doerr (all proffesionals w/ the MSO) warned me to be cautious because of Bach's inconsitency.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Perhaps we should ask Todd to add a "Bach Quality Control Forum"...

My two cents, for the hundredth time:

1.) Most Bachs are good. Some are great. Some are mediocre to poor.
2.) If you're looking for a decent Bach, you probably only need to try out four or five horns. A decent Bach is well worth the price.
3.) If you're looking for a great Bach, you may need to try out 10-20 horns. A great horn, regardless of the make, is worth way more than $1500.
4.) Many people feel that the best Bachs are vintage horns. However, not all vintage Bachs are better than good-to-great new horns. Because trumpets deteriorate over time, vintage Bachs are more likely to be dogs than brand-new ones.

On the subject of vintage Bachs, the simple fact is that whether or not they're better than newer horns, the vast majority of Bachs in professional hands were made in Elkhart. It takes far more time and energy to track down a good vintage horn -- never mind one of the real gems that people rave about -- than it does to get a great brand-new one.

[gzent]

NE,

It depends where you live. If you live in a large city then you can cruise from
shop to shop and try 20 pro horns in one day. That's not possible for a lot of us.
If I felt the need to play a bunch of horns to get a good one I'd want to play them
back to back and that's just not possible for us out in the sticks. That's why for me
I can't afford to buy a horn that is known for wide variance in playability.

I'd be more comfortable getting a worn out, but solid, example of an old Strad,
made in the pre-Selmer, low production number days and having it rebuilt by
a highly respected shop, such as Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works, rather than
"rolling the dice" on a new Strad.

Plus, I just can't see spending the extra $ on a new Strad when there are so many good
copies on the market for less money.

To each his own.

Greg

[JGulyas]

[HorneyMikey]

Bob Dorer plays a gold plated Blackburn C trumpet, with a Monette C1-1D mouthpiece. He matches Manny very well.

By the way, I studied with Manny for 5 years, and he is the one responsible for my success as a professional musician. He may play on heavy Monettes, but he can also sound great on a garden hose. He is one of my best friends, and the finest complement came the day he called me his colleague instead of his student.

Mike Supple
Minneapolis

[oneeyedhobbit]

You are lucky Mike! Manny is an incredible guy! I've only had limited contact with him, but not only is he an incredible musician, but an outstanding person as well.

And for what its worth, Bob and Chuck played Bach's. Chuck just sold his, and is selling Bob's for him. They didn't say Bach's are terrible, not the intention of my post and I apologize if it came across that way, heaven's no-but they did echo the quality control statement, which was my point-to say that there are a great many pros who believe in Bach's inconsistency. I agree with gzent too, one shouldn't have to play 10-20 horns to find a great horn. I could *maybe* see playing (side-by-side) three, having them mostly the same, yet with subtle variations, but still all three quality. Bach has completely neglected their customers for money. It both upsets and angers me.

[FunkySmurf]

For what its worth,
I've learned alot about mass-produced horns in the recent past.
- When I first came back, I owned a Stamm Besson. It was OK, but it didn't fit my hand and the 3rd valve slide didn't move very well at all. Try to play a D or C#, and I'd pull the horn off my face.
- I ordered a Bach from WWBW, sent it back because it sounded thin, and it had solder blobs visible from the 2nd valve slide. The rest of the horn looked good, but the sound was awful.
- I searched around town and the horn that best suited me after the Besson was a Yamaha 8335RGS. At the time, it sounded great until I started 'coming into my own' as a player, and then I realized it wasn't for me. It has awesome production quality though, and the valves are TIGHT. It's like playing a Cadillac.
- I tried a Kanstul 1503 that was OK, but the slides didn't move very well and there was green stuff growing inside the valve ports. Guess that one was 'always a bride's maid, never a bride'.
- I currently play on a Conn V1 for the sound. I played 3 of them in town, and mail ordered two of them. Of the 3 I played in town, the one with a yellow brass bell had a problem with the main tuning slide not fitting in easily. The same thing happenned with the 1st one I received from a shop outside of town. This is not a good situation when Conn gives you 2 tuning slides, and you really have to struggle to get them in and out of the horn. By this I mean that I had to squeeze the leadpipe and slide going into the 3rd valve together to get the main tuning slide in. The 2nd Conn V1 I received mail order did not have that problem, but I could not remove the 2nd valve slide in and out of the horn, and the 2nd valve was sticky. I must say that the yellow brass bell Conn V1s all sounded great to me.
I ended up keeping the second mail order Conn V1, and sent it to Cambrass to have the 2nd valve and valve slide fixed (re-soldered so it would fit the horn). I also had a Reeves alignment done.

Yes, I'm an engineer by day, but if I spend 1000 bucks, I expect that thing to be SWEET.
Bottom line from my experience is that Yamaha rocks with quality control, and the other manufacturers are questionable (Bach, Kanstul, Conn). Unless you play lots of horns, you better beware that you might play someone else's horn that makes yours feel and sound like a dog. It happenned to me. Even with the current Conn I play that is really good, I played a 1969 Benge 3x that was awesome last week... made me want to shoot myself again for having the wrong horn, but my wife got to the gun first!!

- Rob

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Here's what I don't understand about this whole fuss. Let's look at three possible chains of logic:

#1:

a) A great Bach is my first choice BUT
b) That would require me to try out a bunch of horns SO
c) I'm going to get something else which may or may not be a better horn but I consider less likely to be a dog.

#2)

a) Even a great Bach is NOT my first choice SO
b) I'm going to buy something else.

#3)

a) A great Bach is my first choice SO
b) I will do whatever it takes to get one.

The sense I get from virtually everybody who complains about Bach quality control is that they fall into category #2, but make arguments AS IF they fell into category #1. As a member of category #3, the arguments of category #1 (more or less, "I can't be bothered") seem pretty ludicrous. My point is, most people who regard Bach's quality control as a reason not to buy a Bach have other reasons for not buying a Bach.

For somebody who is honestly stuck in a situation where they have one crack at getting a horn, a Bach might be a bit of a gamble -- you might get one of the 5-10% that aren't good. However, most people can at least try out two or three, which is 99.9% likely to result in at least a good Bach. Yes, the odds of finding a real beauty aren't great with a sample that small. BUT -- and this is the point that always seems to get overlooked -- people who honestly prefer Bachs would almost always take a decent Bach over anything else on the market.

Every time this argument comes up, most Bach players are willing to concede that only one in ten or twenty is really, really fabulous. Those who complain about Bachs grab onto that and say, "Aha! Only 5% of Bachs are any good! You admit it! Hahahahaha!" The problem is, that's not the comparison we're making. If you lined up a hundred Bachs and picked out the fiftieth-best one, I would very probably take that horn over any other make of horn. BUT, because the very best Bachs are even better, I am willing to go to great lengths to find one I like.

I own three Bach horns. ALL of them were purchased after long trips out of town to try out a bunch of horns. In the case of my cornet, the local store had only one cornet in stock. I bought it (with the understanding I could return it), drove 300+ miles (one way) to a store that had a larger stock, tried several horns of various makes, decided the first horn was the best one (even though it wasn't the finish I wanted, had a finish defect on the main tuning slide and cost a little more) and kept it. My B flat and C trumpets required longer trips.

If getting the best equipment means investing some time and money, I'm okay with that. This is why I don't buy these arguments. For starters, REGARDLESS of what horn I'm planning on buying, I expect to try out virtually every comparable horn in the store, then every single horn of the model I select. Heading to the store expecting to buy a Bach doesn't change that procedure one bit, except it usually means I have more horns to sort through in the final step! Furthermore, when people complain about the Bach quality control issue, the arguments always seem to boil down to this:

"I am extremely knowledgeable about trumpets, am extremely sensitive to differences between horns, and consider getting a good horn to be very important. However, I will not take a few extra hours of my time to try out several Bachs."

That's just inconsistent. Anybody who says that is either NOT genuinely serious (or competent) about finding the best horn, OR doesn't prefer Bach trumpets anyway -- or both. I strongly suspect that in virtually all situations around here, the second explanation (i.e. serious and competent but doesn't particularly prefer Bachs) is correct. (NB: Before you fire off an angry response accusing me of insulting you, read those last two sentences again!)

Discussion of Bach quality control is ONLY relevant among people with similar opinions about the merits of Bach trumpets. Those who don't like Bachs can go off in one corner and complain about the crap they make these days in Elkhart. The rest of us can go off in the other corner and discuss strategies for finding good ones or whatever. But I would contend that somebody who doesn't play a Bach has by definition decided that there are better horns out there and therefore looks at the quality control issue from a vantage point which is completely irrelevant to somebody who does play a Bach.

[gzent]

NE,

You make some good, valid points, however, I think there is a larger group
of us that think this way:

a) A great Strad at a great price is my first choice.
b) Some day, if I ever find one, I will buy it.
c) In the mean time, there are many good copies on the market that
are both easy to get and are $400-$500 less than a new Strad, so
I play a copy.

That said, lets discuss point a). A great Strad is rare, lets say 1 in 20.
Trying 20 new Strads over a reasonable period of time, say a week
or two, is going to cost me a bunch of travelling and time, neither is free.
Also, I know of no place where you can get a great price on a new
Strad. $1400 is about the lowest I've heard recently. That doesn't
seem like a great price compared to what I've heard people pay for
other pro, mass produced horns.

You say, Yes but they aren't getting a Bach. Who cares? There may have
been a day, when Bachs were really custom made, that they had the
cache to command a higher price than other brands, but those days are
gone. Its just another horn in a sea of mass produced horns.

b) - Someday I may win the lottery too, but I'm not counting on it.

c) - Kanstul (under various brands), Yamaha, Getzen, Benge, B&S, etc,
make fine copies, or so I've heard. Often these horns can be had on closeouts
for $1000. I'm too cheap to spend the extra dough to MAYBE get a better
than average Bach. If I want to spend the extra money, then I will take the
plunge into a REAL custom horn like an Eclipse or a Wild Thing. Said another
way, my time is valuable and rather than use it pursuing a great Bach, I'll
conserve my time and buy something from Flip or Leigh that blows away any
horn that is made by Selmer.

Greg

[oneeyedhobbit]

NE-I also agree that you make many very good points.

However, here is the problem. Unless they know they are going to make a career out of trumpet playing and that a Bach is what they want, most people cannot afford to invest the kind of time and money it takes to get an outstanding Bach. Not all of us can afford to make 3 hr. treks to big shops to try the 20 or so out, not to mention the money involved in this endeavor-both actual expenses and time off of work/school/etc. Perhaps you have the resources to do this for that one "oh-so precious Bach" but the rest of us don't.

Next, and this is my chief gripe-no one should have to do this to find a great Bach! If Bach made consistent horns, we wouldn't have this problem. Instead, they capitalize on the fact that most ppl recognize the Strad as "THE" horn, and pump out as many as they can, to make money. Why Selmer/Steinway/whoever encourages this is beyond me, one would think they would realize they are angering potential buyers and buyers alike. For example, even though you have great Bachs and could afford to go to great lengths to get them, wouldn't you have preferred it be easier than that? For myself, not only do I not have the resources to do that, but I refuse to, unless the company once again builds consistently good horns. Its akin to ppl refusing to even consider a ZeuS because of Alex, sort of a boycott.

Now I admit that a Bach isn't my "dream" horn. When I was younger I had always dreamed of a Bach Strad, so at one time it was. But now that I'm older and (hopefully) wiser, this is not the case. For me, if I can get a great sound on a horn that isnt' such an effort to acquire, why shouldn't I? Further, I freely admit-despite every Bachaholic's claim that Strads have "the" sound, I prefer the sound of my Vintage One. Maybe I've never played one of your 1 in 20 magnificent Bachs, but I haven't yet played ANY horn that (to me) had a better sound. However, this isn't why I single out Bach's lack of quality control. I recognize that they are excellent horns, a legend in many rights. But as I said, the quality control (or lack thereof) upsets me. I only point out the lack of quality control as a warning to people, I'm not saying "no one buy a Bach, everyone buy a Conn Vintage One (or any other horn)!"

The market should offer us choices! If one horn dominated (as Bach somewhat does) the company grows lax (as Bach has with quality control). Further, people want differnt things from their horns. If Bach's quality control was on par with Yamaha's, I would wager that there would still be a great many people that would prefer another horn.

Finally, not all great horns are Bach copies. A Wild Thing is hardly even comparable to a Bach. The bore is much larger, and there are many smaller, subteler differences. I recognize that many fine horns are (the Xeno, G&S, etc.) but stop alleging that all great horns are Bach copies (how does a Monette stack up?). This is simply Bachaholic self-flattery. Just because a horn doens't LOOK radically different does not mean that it is a copy of a Bach Strad. There are hundreds of different silver-plated yellow brass bell horns out there, and just as many different sounds.

[tptbell]

Reading between the lines, I am willing to bet that most people here would love to have a Zeus.
Its the one trumpet here with the most consistently great reviews. It seems to be hard to beat by the big boys with all their resources.

If only people would not go out of their way to be so "offended".
I am sure you have all done worse things in your lives than Zach has done with his website, which is very impressive and effective by the way. Savvy businessman.

[TrptMan]

[ This Message was edited by: TrptMan on 2003-07-03 12:30 ]

[oneeyedhobbit]

Actually TptBell, if you go back and look over the subjective posts not made solely by Zues worshippers, you will find that there are plenty of complaints. No one says it is a terrible horn, but plenty have found faults. I forget what post specifically, but there is one very good one where multiple players review it using a similar format-very informative.

[gzent]

Check out "ZEUS EVALUATION" in the Carmine Caruso Forum for the
formatted Zeus reviews.

[Zachary Music]

Stop dreaming “hobbit”.

Your are fabricating rubbish to satisfy your pathetic malicious personality. You spent too much money on a dog of trumpet and can’t admit to it in public. You know as well as I do that the ZeuS an awesome instrument and to compare it to a new Bach makes you look like a fool. I feel like sending you some money for trumpet lessons.
Try posting your real name first before you shoot your mouth off.
Alex

[mafields627]

What about the thousands of high school students that are sold the Good to Sub-Par Bachs every year but aren't developed enough to recognize it? Do they deserve anything less than one of the 1/20 wonder Bachs? No. I didn't find out until I got into college and was able to try out other pro horns (every pro horn in my high school was a Bach) that my horn is less than what it should be. Did I know any better when I was younger? No. Would my development as a player have been better with a better Bach or a different brand? Yes.

Just because a player is not developed enough to distinguish a good horn from a bad one does not mean that he or she should be left to chance. When I graduate college and have a band of my own (I'm a music ed major), I will NOT put my students on Bachs. I would rather have them on Yamahas or Getzens or Kanstuls with a non-Bach tonal color (which I think is BS) that they can depend on and use for the rest of their careers and not be limited by Bachs.

Edit: I play on a Bach every day, and I struggle with it every day. I played an Olds Recording this past Saturday that made me absolutely sick when I had to pick my Bach up again. But, I'm stuck with it.

_________________
--Matt--
http://mafields627.tripod.com

[ This Message was edited by: mafields627 on 2003-07-01 14:30 ]